HELP! NAZI SS Luger or Fake??? - Page 2

Jamka · 03-01-2005, 06:16 AM

Robert,

Just jumping in at the end (I was sleeping after we had our E-mail exchange earlier this evening). Well, I am sorry for you to notice that all the experts agree upon my first reaction to this Luger.

The man who took your fine Dutch Luger as a trade in for the byf 41 was fully aware of the 'real story' behind it. His reaction when you tried to undo the transaction makes that very clear to me.

The standard approach of this kind of seller follows the standard textbook:
- It was brought back by a veteran after WWII
- I bought it from him directly some .... years ago (in your case 35 years)
- I just tried once to shoot with it, it is very accurate, but never shot again
- I want to sell it now, because... (in your case because his wife is jewish - and she does not want him to keep a SS marked Luger in his collection)
- SS marked Lugers are very rare, many are not real, but this one is, because.... In your case the book, and the 'matching marking' on the strip.

This last part is one of the best prepared arguments that I heard of, and the Luger plus the book are together a gimmick that will give you a lot to talk about during a gun show, as Ed pointed out.

Best regards

Vlim · 03-01-2005, 01:00 PM

Hi,

Some comments:
-The chance that this pistol is 'real' is slim to nothing. As people here rightfully explained.
-A 'real' SS-luger is difficult to find, and again not too difficult. Most were normal police issue P08's, not marked in any particular way, except for normal police property markings, etc... Some were commercial Mauser-banner style (one was actually dug up a while ago, covered in a piece of SS-clothing). NONE are marked specifically as 'SS', no documentation is known today that proves any ever were.

The grip markings are probably as fake as the rest. Unit marking was stopped long before this pistol was produced.

Hope you can retreive your money/dutch luger/whatever from the person do did the trade with.

the gunman · 03-01-2005, 02:13 PM

Good luck trying to get your money back on this one

George Anderson · 03-01-2005, 03:57 PM

If you suspect that the seller defrauded you and he is a licensed dealer then it would be possible to determine whether his many years of ownership were in fact true. Simply take him to small claims court and demand that he offer up his FFL records to determine when he bought the gun. At the same time you could determine if he did trade your Dutch Luger.

The very threat of such action should bring a devious dealer with an FFL to your terms.

historybuffguy@aol.com · 03-01-2005, 05:05 PM

Thanks guys for the advice...

Yes... I will call him tonight, and state that I want the $1500 back (which is what I wanted on the Dutch Luger)....

I will place a post on what happens... Thanks again... Robert

Carl · 03-01-2005, 11:14 PM

Robert,

Everything has been faked, helmets, flags, daggers, guns, art, all antiques...everything! Find yourself a mentor, read everything you can find and then believe only half of that. Then maybe you will save a lot of money.

Best luck,
Carl

historybuffguy@aol.com · 03-01-2005, 11:20 PM

Thanks Carl....

I tried calling him tonight... and he appears to be avoiding me now.... It appears I will have to legal action in small claims court....

Doug G. · 03-01-2005, 11:53 PM

Could this have the odor of Copperas Cove???? I will agree with the others you got ripped off!

Please post his name it can spread quickly on the various boards and will save others from him.
I would try his local Police Dept and file a fraud claim. Also notify the BATFE in case he altered the serial number. In any matter it could trigger a nice audit of him books if he is a FFL or C&R. This pic to me says that it has been refinished poorly. No sharp edges on the radius of the receiver ring.

historybuffguy@aol.com · 03-02-2005, 12:53 AM

Good News!!!

He called me back....

He said that he didn't have the Dutch Luger I traded for this Luger, not the $1500 to pay for the Dutch Luger.

But, he would give me the G43 rifle he got for the Dutch Luger. We met at 10 pm MST, and did the swap.

The gun looks near mint/mint. The bore looks perfect...

I hope the rifle is real... :-) It looks unissued...

Thanks for your help guys.... He was not a big time dealer, nor the person a few suspected.

Robert

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/g43.jpg

Freischütz · 03-02-2005, 01:02 AM

I see you received some excellent advice. You might show your P.08 and book on Tuco's K98 Mauser Forum. They frequently discuss SS markings and may be able to tie you gun's markings into something they've seen on K98s.

Ron Smith · 03-02-2005, 08:29 AM

If indeed , it is a minty G43, you came out way ahead. They have been going for close to $2000. I bought a bring back from the vet for $200 back in the 80s. Sold it a year later for $375. Sure wish I would have kept it.
Ron

Lyn Islaub · 03-02-2005, 10:16 PM

Well Robert, I would say that you were lucky. You could have ended up with the phony byf. I sat through the same show for 2 days (sold 4 lugers there) and saw the Luger you ended up with and the G43. The guy with the G43 wanted $2500, or a trade for an unspecified Luger and a P-38. The stock on the G43 is either refinished or an aftermarket replacement. Two of the magazines are original, but are refinished and one of the magazines is a repro. There were also 2 magazine holders and an original factory G43 manual that I hope you got as part of the bargain. Like the other members, I would like to know who you were dealing with, especially because I live in Phoenix too and always like to know who the fakers are.
Lyn

historybuffguy@aol.com · 03-02-2005, 10:34 PM

Thanks Lyn for your comments....

I didn't get the manual, and only got one magazine. I don't know if the mag. is original or not. It looks painted, or restored?

I hope the stock is original. It looks to be perfect. I am sure it was restored. The bore is pristine.

I "Kenny" thinks this is a G43 that he restored a couple years ago. I think the stock is legit. I will ask him, to double check.

Since you saw the rifle, do you feel it's worth at least $1500, with the stuff I got with it?

Thanks for your advice... Robert in Phoenix, AZ

Snafu63092 · 03-02-2005, 11:45 PM

I drive from Vegas to Phoenix every couple of months for the Crossroads Show, in fact I was at the one all this happened at, there are alot of crooks looking to unload crap there. This time was interesting as I saw about 6 gang members picking up high quality handguns (Glock, HK and Sigs), tons of ammo and the most disturbing a guy in the tents between the two buildings sold them all bullet proof vests....I'm hoping they are police trade in's that are worn out.

historybuffguy@aol.com · 03-02-2005, 11:52 PM

I saw those gang members too!!

I thought... looks like like trouble, and something will turn up on the news involving these guys.

I was under the tent with Gale, when one of the gang members was trying the vest on a few feet away...

Lyn Islaub · 03-03-2005, 09:15 PM

Robert,
My partner at the show corrected me and says that there were 3 original mags that had been repainted, and 2 repro mags. There were also 2 magazine pouches that were repros. The original mags are marked K43, yes K43 and have a waffenampt eagle stamp and a 3 digit manufacturers code. A common code for G43 mags was "gcb". If the mag you have doesn't have those markings, it is a repro and I would suggest you go back to that weasel and get one of the originals. While you are there ask him for the manual (easily worth $100) and the scope mount as he obviously kept most of the goodies. Mags sell for about $100-150 and if you can't squeeze one out of him I know a PHX source. The stock certainly could be an original one, but it is definitely refinished. The 2 local G43s that am familiar with do not have laminate stocks for whatever that is worth. Did you get a good deal?? Yes, I think at the end of day you did OK. I wish, however that I would have found you and your Dutch Luger first. Then you'd have my money and I'd have your Luger. Send me a PM with your local e-mail so I can discuss this stuff directly with you.
Lyn

historybuffguy@aol.com · 03-03-2005, 10:21 PM

Thanks Lyn for your info.

Yes... the mag has the waffenampt eagle stamp , the letters K43, and "gcb." It sure looks repainted too. Sounds like I got an original mag? COOL!!

It HAD a scope mount? That guy was a weasel for sure! If the stock is legit... I am very happy. I always liked these things, but never thought I would actually get one.

That Dutch Luger was in so-so shape. I didn't like the looks of it.

I bought a small collection of 9 Lugers, and a "Banner HP" P-38 from an 82 year old ex collector about 3 weeks ago in Phoenix.

When I first saw that brass plate on the Dutch Luger... I was trying to think of a way to remove it!

The 9 Lugers consisted of:

1. 1942 Byf "aka: Black Widow"
2. 1935 Luger
3. 1916 Luger
4. 1906 American Eagle
5. 1900 Commercial
6. 1900 Commercial with LOW serial number (under 150)
7. 1917 Artillery Luger
8. Dutch Luger-I saw 1928 on the barrel?
9. 1900 American Eagle
10. Banner P-38 HP

I am mostly a helmet/flag/dagger collector.... and buy weapons for display if I think the price is right. I paid just over $11,000 for the collection above. I think I did well....... No holsters... no reblueing on any of the above.

Robert

Pete Ebbink · 03-03-2005, 10:57 PM

Hi Robert,

The Dutch luger with the "1928" stamped on the barrel indicates it was replaced by the local GS armory in Indonesia in the yer 1928. Since the tropics can be tough on lugers, many Dutch lugers from Indonesia will have such a replacement.

If you are out there buying $ 11K worth of lugers, you might want to seriously consider a book investment of a few Hundred dollars to build up a luger library...of say 10-15 luger books

There are many luger sellers hoping they run into folks with the right amount of money that do not have books and haven't studied, and so...take the word of the dealer about how rare or how original a luger's finish might be and why their asking price is a "bargain" or a good "investment".

I have always chuckled when some guy offers to sell me a boosted luger and says it would be a great investment...the "investment" is usually on the seller's end who has taken a cheaply priced luger and refurbished it into a rare and factory mint piece. How does the buyer make a sound investment when he over pays for a gun that is not legit and one he would have trouble selling for years to come and may never recoup his money...???

This is only offered as friendly advice to a fellow collector...

Regards,

Pete...

Dwight Gruber · 03-04-2005, 02:22 AM

Robert, please see your Private Messages.

--Dwight

Vlim · 03-04-2005, 12:23 PM

Hi Robert,

Well, messing with a completely unmessed-with original Dutch luger would have been a mistake worse than trading it for a fake SS-luger.

These Dutch pistols are very well documented and the state you described is typical for a Dutch luger. Of course, being Dutch I'm a bit fond of Dutch lugers. I'm sure glad you left this one alone.

03-01-2005, 06:16 AM	#21
Jamka RIP Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Antwerp Belgium Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Robert, Just jumping in at the end (I was sleeping after we had our E-mail exchange earlier this evening). Well, I am sorry for you to notice that all the experts agree upon my first reaction to this Luger. The man who took your fine Dutch Luger as a trade in for the byf 41 was fully aware of the 'real story' behind it. His reaction when you tried to undo the transaction makes that very clear to me. The standard approach of this kind of seller follows the standard textbook: - It was brought back by a veteran after WWII - I bought it from him directly some .... years ago (in your case 35 years) - I just tried once to shoot with it, it is very accurate, but never shot again - I want to sell it now, because... (in your case because his wife is jewish - and she does not want him to keep a SS marked Luger in his collection) - SS marked Lugers are very rare, many are not real, but this one is, because.... In your case the book, and the 'matching marking' on the strip. This last part is one of the best prepared arguments that I heard of, and the Luger plus the book are together a gimmick that will give you a lot to talk about during a gun show, as Ed pointed out. Best regards __________________ Joop

03-02-2005, 08:29 AM	#31
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	If indeed , it is a minty G43, you came out way ahead. They have been going for close to $2000. I bought a bring back from the vet for $200 back in the 80s. Sold it a year later for $375. Sure wish I would have kept it. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

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03-01-2005, 01:00 PM	#22
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Some comments: -The chance that this pistol is 'real' is slim to nothing. As people here rightfully explained. -A 'real' SS-luger is difficult to find, and again not too difficult. Most were normal police issue P08's, not marked in any particular way, except for normal police property markings, etc... Some were commercial Mauser-banner style (one was actually dug up a while ago, covered in a piece of SS-clothing). NONE are marked specifically as 'SS', no documentation is known today that proves any ever were. The grip markings are probably as fake as the rest. Unit marking was stopped long before this pistol was produced. Hope you can retreive your money/dutch luger/whatever from the person do did the trade with.

03-01-2005, 02:13 PM	#23
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	Good luck trying to get your money back on this one

03-01-2005, 03:57 PM	#24
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	If you suspect that the seller defrauded you and he is a licensed dealer then it would be possible to determine whether his many years of ownership were in fact true. Simply take him to small claims court and demand that he offer up his FFL records to determine when he bought the gun. At the same time you could determine if he did trade your Dutch Luger. The very threat of such action should bring a devious dealer with an FFL to your terms.

03-01-2005, 05:05 PM	#25
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks guys for the advice... Yes... I will call him tonight, and state that I want the $1500 back (which is what I wanted on the Dutch Luger).... I will place a post on what happens... Thanks again... Robert

03-01-2005, 11:14 PM	#26
Carl User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central PA Posts: 113 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Robert, Everything has been faked, helmets, flags, daggers, guns, art, all antiques...everything! Find yourself a mentor, read everything you can find and then believe only half of that. Then maybe you will save a lot of money. Best luck, Carl

03-01-2005, 11:20 PM	#27
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Carl.... I tried calling him tonight... and he appears to be avoiding me now.... It appears I will have to legal action in small claims court....

03-01-2005, 11:53 PM	#28
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Could this have the odor of Copperas Cove???? I will agree with the others you got ripped off! Please post his name it can spread quickly on the various boards and will save others from him. I would try his local Police Dept and file a fraud claim. Also notify the BATFE in case he altered the serial number. In any matter it could trigger a nice audit of him books if he is a FFL or C&R. This pic to me says that it has been refinished poorly. No sharp edges on the radius of the receiver ring.

03-02-2005, 12:53 AM	#29
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Good News!!! He called me back.... He said that he didn't have the Dutch Luger I traded for this Luger, not the $1500 to pay for the Dutch Luger. But, he would give me the G43 rifle he got for the Dutch Luger. We met at 10 pm MST, and did the swap. The gun looks near mint/mint. The bore looks perfect... I hope the rifle is real... :-) It looks unissued... Thanks for your help guys.... He was not a big time dealer, nor the person a few suspected. Robert http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/g43.jpg

03-02-2005, 01:02 AM	#30
Freischütz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 125 Thanks: 9 Thanked 26 Times in 19 Posts	I see you received some excellent advice. You might show your P.08 and book on Tuco's K98 Mauser Forum. They frequently discuss SS markings and may be able to tie you gun's markings into something they've seen on K98s.

03-02-2005, 10:16 PM	#32
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Well Robert, I would say that you were lucky. You could have ended up with the phony byf. I sat through the same show for 2 days (sold 4 lugers there) and saw the Luger you ended up with and the G43. The guy with the G43 wanted $2500, or a trade for an unspecified Luger and a P-38. The stock on the G43 is either refinished or an aftermarket replacement. Two of the magazines are original, but are refinished and one of the magazines is a repro. There were also 2 magazine holders and an original factory G43 manual that I hope you got as part of the bargain. Like the other members, I would like to know who you were dealing with, especially because I live in Phoenix too and always like to know who the fakers are. Lyn

03-02-2005, 10:34 PM	#33
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Lyn for your comments.... I didn't get the manual, and only got one magazine. I don't know if the mag. is original or not. It looks painted, or restored? I hope the stock is original. It looks to be perfect. I am sure it was restored. The bore is pristine. I "Kenny" thinks this is a G43 that he restored a couple years ago. I think the stock is legit. I will ask him, to double check. Since you saw the rifle, do you feel it's worth at least $1500, with the stuff I got with it? Thanks for your advice... Robert in Phoenix, AZ

03-02-2005, 11:45 PM	#34
Snafu63092 User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I drive from Vegas to Phoenix every couple of months for the Crossroads Show, in fact I was at the one all this happened at, there are alot of crooks looking to unload crap there. This time was interesting as I saw about 6 gang members picking up high quality handguns (Glock, HK and Sigs), tons of ammo and the most disturbing a guy in the tents between the two buildings sold them all bullet proof vests....I'm hoping they are police trade in's that are worn out.

03-02-2005, 11:52 PM	#35
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I saw those gang members too!! I thought... looks like like trouble, and something will turn up on the news involving these guys. I was under the tent with Gale, when one of the gang members was trying the vest on a few feet away...

03-03-2005, 09:15 PM	#36
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Robert, My partner at the show corrected me and says that there were 3 original mags that had been repainted, and 2 repro mags. There were also 2 magazine pouches that were repros. The original mags are marked K43, yes K43 and have a waffenampt eagle stamp and a 3 digit manufacturers code. A common code for G43 mags was "gcb". If the mag you have doesn't have those markings, it is a repro and I would suggest you go back to that weasel and get one of the originals. While you are there ask him for the manual (easily worth $100) and the scope mount as he obviously kept most of the goodies. Mags sell for about $100-150 and if you can't squeeze one out of him I know a PHX source. The stock certainly could be an original one, but it is definitely refinished. The 2 local G43s that am familiar with do not have laminate stocks for whatever that is worth. Did you get a good deal?? Yes, I think at the end of day you did OK. I wish, however that I would have found you and your Dutch Luger first. Then you'd have my money and I'd have your Luger. Send me a PM with your local e-mail so I can discuss this stuff directly with you. Lyn

03-03-2005, 10:21 PM	#37
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Lyn for your info. Yes... the mag has the waffenampt eagle stamp , the letters K43, and "gcb." It sure looks repainted too. Sounds like I got an original mag? COOL!! It HAD a scope mount? That guy was a weasel for sure! If the stock is legit... I am very happy. I always liked these things, but never thought I would actually get one. That Dutch Luger was in so-so shape. I didn't like the looks of it. I bought a small collection of 9 Lugers, and a "Banner HP" P-38 from an 82 year old ex collector about 3 weeks ago in Phoenix. When I first saw that brass plate on the Dutch Luger... I was trying to think of a way to remove it! The 9 Lugers consisted of: 1. 1942 Byf "aka: Black Widow" 2. 1935 Luger 3. 1916 Luger 4. 1906 American Eagle 5. 1900 Commercial 6. 1900 Commercial with LOW serial number (under 150) 7. 1917 Artillery Luger 8. Dutch Luger-I saw 1928 on the barrel? 9. 1900 American Eagle 10. Banner P-38 HP I am mostly a helmet/flag/dagger collector.... and buy weapons for display if I think the price is right. I paid just over $11,000 for the collection above. I think I did well....... No holsters... no reblueing on any of the above. Robert

03-03-2005, 10:57 PM	#38
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Robert, The Dutch luger with the "1928" stamped on the barrel indicates it was replaced by the local GS armory in Indonesia in the yer 1928. Since the tropics can be tough on lugers, many Dutch lugers from Indonesia will have such a replacement. If you are out there buying $ 11K worth of lugers, you might want to seriously consider a book investment of a few Hundred dollars to build up a luger library...of say 10-15 luger books There are many luger sellers hoping they run into folks with the right amount of money that do not have books and haven't studied, and so...take the word of the dealer about how rare or how original a luger's finish might be and why their asking price is a "bargain" or a good "investment". I have always chuckled when some guy offers to sell me a boosted luger and says it would be a great investment...the "investment" is usually on the seller's end who has taken a cheaply priced luger and refurbished it into a rare and factory mint piece. How does the buyer make a sound investment when he over pays for a gun that is not legit and one he would have trouble selling for years to come and may never recoup his money...??? This is only offered as friendly advice to a fellow collector... Regards, Pete...

03-04-2005, 02:22 AM	#39
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Robert, please see your Private Messages. --Dwight

03-04-2005, 12:23 PM	#40
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Robert, Well, messing with a completely unmessed-with original Dutch luger would have been a mistake worse than trading it for a fake SS-luger. These Dutch pistols are very well documented and the state you described is typical for a Dutch luger. Of course, being Dutch I'm a bit fond of Dutch lugers. I'm sure glad you left this one alone.