HELP! NAZI SS Luger or Fake???

historybuffguy@aol.com · 02-28-2005, 09:37 PM

Help!!

I know very little about Lugers....

Yesterday at a gun show in Phoenix, Arizona I traded a Dutch Luger (average shape) for the Luger below. It's a Byf 41 "Black Widow" with "SS" markings, and skull and cross bones. On the spine of the handle, it appears to have unit markings that can be traced to a spefic SS Major.

The markings are as follows: RSHA Section III B 5

According to a book, which the guy included with this gun, it belong to:

"SS Major von Loew zu Steinfurth." Section III B 5. Occupied Territories."

The Luger appears to have even wear on the exterior, but the bore is poor.

Did I get lucky, or was a suckered by a "shooter grade Luger" that was "enhanced" to add value.

He claimed to have the gun for 35 years, and got it from a former WWII veteran.

Please be gentle. I am new to this... :-)

Robert

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger19.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger22.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger28.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger31.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger33.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger34.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger35.jpg

Edward Tinker · 02-28-2005, 09:41 PM

Well, sorry, but to me, I would guess that your dutch gun was worth more than this.

Lugers were not specifically issued to a person and marked, and the "black widow" is simply an american made up sales gimmick.

Plus skull and cross bones were not applied to any guns in WW2 that I know of?

I have never seen this book, but I can see why it points to the gun to the man?

Ed

historybuffguy@aol.com · 02-28-2005, 09:50 PM

Thanks for your input...

I feel the Dutch Luger I had was worth $1500.

The wooden case was bought for this Luger, and is fairly new. He used some sort of white solution to make the markings stick out better. This can be cleaned off, etc.

Robert

Edward Tinker · 02-28-2005, 10:04 PM

Although Robert, if you want to have something different and unusual, this is in that category. The book with the gun makes for a comment, an arguement and something to talk about at a show!

Ed

Pete Ebbink · 02-28-2005, 10:08 PM

Robert,

The few Death Head lugers shown in books all have that marking on top of the chamber and all were 1917 or 1918 WWI luger guns...Not sure about this WWII piece...I would have held on to the Dutch luger...but maybe I am partial due to being Dutch-Indonesian...

I am having a brain fart at this moment...are you the same LF member that bought a very rare French Luger a couple of years ago for $ 450 at a flea market...?

Regards,

Pete...

historybuffguy@aol.com · 02-28-2005, 10:17 PM

Thanks for your e-mail...

Yes... I found a French Luger in August of 2003 at a flea market in Phoenix... Actually... it was $400 :-).

I still have it.... I have been looking for Lugers, Nambu's etc. for about two years... I am still trying to learn... but there is so much to know...

Robert

MauserLugers · 02-28-2005, 10:19 PM

For what little my opinion is worth, I think this Luger has had the SS stuff all added post WW2. Without some sort of documentation that is reliable, this sort of stuff just messed up a nice Luger. I wouldn't give anything more for a shooter price for it. -- Bill

Russ · 02-28-2005, 10:25 PM

I think you need to buy some books. As Tom A says tewition at luger U is expensive
Russ

Ron Wood · 02-28-2005, 10:33 PM

You got really lucky with the French Luger. I am pretty sure you weren't so lucky this time.

historybuffguy@aol.com · 02-28-2005, 10:39 PM

Hello Ed...

I know what you mean..... You feel that someone could have seen the book first, and then altered the Luger to identify a particular person.

I am confident that the guy I traded to obtain this gun feels it's real. The book was printed in 1989, and he claims to have had this pistol for 35 years.

Of course, I have to assume he is not lying to me, etc.

Has anybody seen, or owned a gun marked this way????

Robert

Edward Tinker · 02-28-2005, 10:56 PM

Many, and I repeat, MANY long time collectors believe wrong info, not to say he was lying or anything, he simply did not know the truth. Plus, although he has owned it for 35 years, that leaves 29 years where it could have been messed with by joe-blow...

And, the guys above who answered you, well, they have more knowledge than about any other fifty guys at any gunshow...

Ed

lugerholsterrepair · 02-28-2005, 11:32 PM

Robert, You was robbed! Who was this guy? Jerry Burney

historybuffguy@aol.com · 02-28-2005, 11:43 PM

Thanks Jerry for your comments....

I don't want to say this guys name yet.... but I called him about two hours ago.

I stated I would like my Dutch Luger back... and he claimed he traded it away for a G43 rifle.

I then said I would take the G43 rifle, and he said no. I then asked for $1500, and he said no.

Do I have any legal recourse if I was deceived??

Robert

Edward Tinker · 02-28-2005, 11:58 PM

Legally probably. But is it worth it? Probably not, as he might have believed the story and if he doesn't, he will insist he does

Then you would have to get a lawyer, pay them, and overall it could come out that caveat emptor (sp), let the buyer beware...

I would comment that you posted on this forum and also Jan Stills forum, and several aknowledged experts said the story was false and in fact untrue. See what he says.

But, I think I would take it as a lesson learned.

Ed

historybuffguy@aol.com · 03-01-2005, 12:02 AM

Hello Ed...

Yes... I posted on two sites... I want as much opionions as possible.
I will contact the guy tomorrow.

It appears obvious the gun was faked to enhance value based on comments.

Are there any know examples, that have such markings on the grip/spine?

Thanks again... Robert

Edward Tinker · 03-01-2005, 12:19 AM

Robert, what I meant was, tell the guy that you posted on the two best known sites for lugers and experts on both sites said it was bogus. I too post on both sites, as I want to get the best opnions out there.

Good luck, no matter what, it is an interesting (if probably bogus) story

Ed

historybuffguy@aol.com · 03-01-2005, 12:25 AM

Thanks Ed...

I will state that the experts have spoken.

Robert

Edward Tinker · 03-01-2005, 12:35 AM

and I have seen one or two lugers with names on them, but it is uncommon and generally beleived put on after the war.

ED

historybuffguy@aol.com · 03-01-2005, 01:18 AM

I received several e-mails directly from collectors who suspect a well know Luger collector makes these.

I don't want to say that persons name because it may be inappropriate. I don't want to make accusations, nor get others, or myself in trouble.

I will try to return the Luger for a cash refund,

I collect mostly military helmets, flags, and daggers from WW2... and sisn't think people would fake stuff like this.

Robert

Sieger · 03-01-2005, 04:18 AM

Hi:

The faker's German wasn't very good either. The name appears to be misspelled and doesn't make much sense either.

Sieger

02-28-2005, 09:37 PM	#1
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	HELP! NAZI SS Luger or Fake??? Help!! I know very little about Lugers.... Yesterday at a gun show in Phoenix, Arizona I traded a Dutch Luger (average shape) for the Luger below. It's a Byf 41 "Black Widow" with "SS" markings, and skull and cross bones. On the spine of the handle, it appears to have unit markings that can be traced to a spefic SS Major. The markings are as follows: RSHA Section III B 5 According to a book, which the guy included with this gun, it belong to: "SS Major von Loew zu Steinfurth." Section III B 5. Occupied Territories." The Luger appears to have even wear on the exterior, but the bore is poor. Did I get lucky, or was a suckered by a "shooter grade Luger" that was "enhanced" to add value. He claimed to have the gun for 35 years, and got it from a former WWII veteran. Please be gentle. I am new to this... :-) Robert http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger19.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger22.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger28.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger31.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger33.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger34.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger35.jpg

02-28-2005, 10:04 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Although Robert, if you want to have something different and unusual, this is in that category. The book with the gun makes for a comment, an arguement and something to talk about at a show! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-28-2005, 10:25 PM	#8
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	I think you need to buy some books. As Tom A says tewition at luger U is expensive Russ __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!

02-28-2005, 10:33 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	You got really lucky with the French Luger. I am pretty sure you weren't so lucky this time. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-28-2005, 11:32 PM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Robert, You was robbed! Who was this guy? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-28-2005, 09:41 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Well, sorry, but to me, I would guess that your dutch gun was worth more than this. Lugers were not specifically issued to a person and marked, and the "black widow" is simply an american made up sales gimmick. Plus skull and cross bones were not applied to any guns in WW2 that I know of? I have never seen this book, but I can see why it points to the gun to the man? Ed

02-28-2005, 09:50 PM	#3
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for your input... I feel the Dutch Luger I had was worth $1500. The wooden case was bought for this Luger, and is fairly new. He used some sort of white solution to make the markings stick out better. This can be cleaned off, etc. Robert

02-28-2005, 10:08 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Robert, The few Death Head lugers shown in books all have that marking on top of the chamber and all were 1917 or 1918 WWI luger guns...Not sure about this WWII piece...I would have held on to the Dutch luger...but maybe I am partial due to being Dutch-Indonesian... I am having a brain fart at this moment...are you the same LF member that bought a very rare French Luger a couple of years ago for $ 450 at a flea market...? Regards, Pete...

02-28-2005, 10:17 PM	#6
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for your e-mail... Yes... I found a French Luger in August of 2003 at a flea market in Phoenix... Actually... it was $400 :-). I still have it.... I have been looking for Lugers, Nambu's etc. for about two years... I am still trying to learn... but there is so much to know... Robert

02-28-2005, 10:19 PM	#7
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	For what little my opinion is worth, I think this Luger has had the SS stuff all added post WW2. Without some sort of documentation that is reliable, this sort of stuff just messed up a nice Luger. I wouldn't give anything more for a shooter price for it. -- Bill

02-28-2005, 10:39 PM	#10
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Ed... I know what you mean..... You feel that someone could have seen the book first, and then altered the Luger to identify a particular person. I am confident that the guy I traded to obtain this gun feels it's real. The book was printed in 1989, and he claims to have had this pistol for 35 years. Of course, I have to assume he is not lying to me, etc. Has anybody seen, or owned a gun marked this way???? Robert

02-28-2005, 10:56 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Many, and I repeat, MANY long time collectors believe wrong info, not to say he was lying or anything, he simply did not know the truth. Plus, although he has owned it for 35 years, that leaves 29 years where it could have been messed with by joe-blow... And, the guys above who answered you, well, they have more knowledge than about any other fifty guys at any gunshow... Ed

02-28-2005, 11:43 PM	#13
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Jerry for your comments.... I don't want to say this guys name yet.... but I called him about two hours ago. I stated I would like my Dutch Luger back... and he claimed he traded it away for a G43 rifle. I then said I would take the G43 rifle, and he said no. I then asked for $1500, and he said no. Do I have any legal recourse if I was deceived?? Robert

02-28-2005, 11:58 PM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Legally probably. But is it worth it? Probably not, as he might have believed the story and if he doesn't, he will insist he does Then you would have to get a lawyer, pay them, and overall it could come out that caveat emptor (sp), let the buyer beware... I would comment that you posted on this forum and also Jan Stills forum, and several aknowledged experts said the story was false and in fact untrue. See what he says. But, I think I would take it as a lesson learned. Ed

03-01-2005, 12:02 AM	#15
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Ed... Yes... I posted on two sites... I want as much opionions as possible. I will contact the guy tomorrow. It appears obvious the gun was faked to enhance value based on comments. Are there any know examples, that have such markings on the grip/spine? Thanks again... Robert

03-01-2005, 12:19 AM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Robert, what I meant was, tell the guy that you posted on the two best known sites for lugers and experts on both sites said it was bogus. I too post on both sites, as I want to get the best opnions out there. Good luck, no matter what, it is an interesting (if probably bogus) story Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-01-2005, 12:25 AM	#17
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Ed... I will state that the experts have spoken. Robert

03-01-2005, 12:35 AM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	and I have seen one or two lugers with names on them, but it is uncommon and generally beleived put on after the war. ED __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-01-2005, 01:18 AM	#19
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I received several e-mails directly from collectors who suspect a well know Luger collector makes these. I don't want to say that persons name because it may be inappropriate. I don't want to make accusations, nor get others, or myself in trouble. I will try to return the Luger for a cash refund, I collect mostly military helmets, flags, and daggers from WW2... and sisn't think people would fake stuff like this. Robert

03-01-2005, 04:18 AM	#20
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,579 Thanks: 2,144 Thanked 402 Times in 251 Posts	Fake SS Luger Hi: The faker's German wasn't very good either. The name appears to be misspelled and doesn't make much sense either. Sieger

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