1918 Navy...

Pete Ebbink · 10-15-2004, 05:32 PM

Hi Big Norm,

I transferred a bit of your posting in the LP-08 section here :

" The same thing happens in the navy Lugers when someone tries to sell a model 1914 with a 1918 chamber date. It just ain't so. "

I did get a chance to see a nice M1918 Navy luger at the SE NAPCA event in TN last month in person.

The gun had "1918" on the left receiver rail and on the left side of the front sight base. Size of the fonts were different at the two locations. Chamber was blank.

I am certainly not a Navy expert, by any means, but the gun looked "very right" to me...as far as finish, "halos", wear, etc.

If I recall correctly, I think it did have a small rear toggle pin flange...(which was the only un-certainty I had about the Navy...).

I was so intrigued to see a 1918 Navy...that I totaly spaced out and forgot to record the serial number...

Gun's owner was more than willing to let any/all take a closer look and to do a take-down as well...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Navy · 10-15-2004, 05:49 PM

I am personally familiar with the pistol in question having disassembled it and going over it with a loupe in Louisville in 2002. The gun is legitimate. It has some irregularities, but it is what it puports to be.

Tom A.

luger11 · 10-15-2004, 06:54 PM

Pete...........the serial number of the piece is 1262 and the chamber is not blank it is stamped 1918

Pete Ebbink · 10-15-2004, 07:02 PM

Hi Leo,

Thanks for setting me straight on the chamber date...I saw so many Navy lugers that weekend...I am still having dreams about them...

I also appreciate the fact that an Owner of a somewhat controversial gun would bring it out of the gun safe and allow fellow collectors and other experts to look over the piece.

Your 1918 Navy was one highlight of my trip to Chattanooga. Another was seeing the 1910 Erfurt P-08 luger (serial # 49) in person.

Best Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

luger11 · 10-15-2004, 07:27 PM

Pete.........I brought the gun ther purpossely because of the list of guests that would be present. When you have a "controversal " piece you need all those with years and years of experience to voice thier oppinion, and I did return home very satisfied.
Leo

Big Norm · 10-19-2004, 06:50 AM

Pete and others,
I wonder if this is the same chamber dated 1918, model 1914 issue that has previously come up for discussion on this forum. At the time, with the information available, I thought that this was a Weimar Era navy and said so on this forum and in the NAPCA magazine. TomA refered to some irregularities and Pete mentioned the the fonts sizes on the rail and on the front sight seemed to be different. Since I am unable to personally see the gun in question and because I am unable to see pertinent comparision pictures, I will stick to my original stand that this is a Weimar Era put together. If this is in fact a true chamber dated 1918, model 1914, navy Luger, then it would be a rare collector piece indeed.

I would like to refer to John Walter's excellent book 'The Luger Book' page 209 where he is discussing P04's. He says:
"Note: two guns have been reported dated 1914, one dated 1915 and one dated 1918. All four are believed to be mismatches combining army and navy parts".

I wish I could say that I have the knowledge of the honorable Ron Wood, Tom Armstrong and a few others whom I have great respect for after following them for a long time on this forum, but I can't. But I have been going by the book while collecting Lugers and have a strong tendency to believe in the written word until its proven to be in error. When that occasionally happens, I put a note in the appropriate book and move on.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 10-19-2004, 07:22 AM

Pete,
after re-reading your post, I decided to make an addition to my previous post. I believe that ALL model 1914 navies would have a large flange on the pin that you mentioned. This would fall in line with my quote from John Walters book and make me further believe that this is a post-1918 navy.
Big Norm

luger11 · 10-19-2004, 05:12 PM

Hi Norm
Mr. Sam Constanzo examined this piece and he feels the same as you, that it is from the Weimar era. But what you must realise that this gun is not a hodgepoge of surplus parts and it was not fabricated in someones cellar.
If you would send me your mailing address I will send you a copy of that report.
Thanks for your interest
Leo

Big Norm · 10-20-2004, 12:15 AM

Leo,
I believe you when you say that this is not a hodgepodge of surplus parts from someones basement. Maybe a hodgepodge of parts from the factory bins but not from someones basement. When Pete said that he saw the telltale halos around various markings, I then believed that there was a certain amount of legitimacy to your gun. The small flange on the hinge pin convinced me that it is not a 1918 though.

I also have what I call a 1920 Weimar Era commercial navy and it also has the small flange on the hinge pin. Mine does not have a chamber date but does have the upright crown 'N'. Four digit serial number but no military markings. No date on either the front sight or on the side rail. I sometimes wondered if I should call it a commercial model 1914 navy or a 1920 Weimar navy. The small flanged hinge pin and the bluing told me which way to go.

I think that if you took your navy out in the sunlight and compared the bluing to a comparatively blued authentic navy with original bluing, you will find that your bluing is more black while the authentic navy bluing will be more blue/black. Its possible, but tough, to see the difference under normal gun show lighting conditions but in sunlight the difference stands out.
Big Norm

10-15-2004, 05:32 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	1918 Navy... Hi Big Norm, I transferred a bit of your posting in the LP-08 section here : " The same thing happens in the navy Lugers when someone tries to sell a model 1914 with a 1918 chamber date. It just ain't so. " I did get a chance to see a nice M1918 Navy luger at the SE NAPCA event in TN last month in person. The gun had "1918" on the left receiver rail and on the left side of the front sight base. Size of the fonts were different at the two locations. Chamber was blank. I am certainly not a Navy expert, by any means, but the gun looked "very right" to me...as far as finish, "halos", wear, etc. If I recall correctly, I think it did have a small rear toggle pin flange...(which was the only un-certainty I had about the Navy...). I was so intrigued to see a 1918 Navy...that I totaly spaced out and forgot to record the serial number... Gun's owner was more than willing to let any/all take a closer look and to do a take-down as well... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

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10-15-2004, 05:49 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I am personally familiar with the pistol in question having disassembled it and going over it with a loupe in Louisville in 2002. The gun is legitimate. It has some irregularities, but it is what it puports to be. Tom A.

10-15-2004, 06:54 PM	#3
luger11 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 149 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete...........the serial number of the piece is 1262 and the chamber is not blank it is stamped 1918

10-15-2004, 07:02 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Leo, Thanks for setting me straight on the chamber date...I saw so many Navy lugers that weekend...I am still having dreams about them... I also appreciate the fact that an Owner of a somewhat controversial gun would bring it out of the gun safe and allow fellow collectors and other experts to look over the piece. Your 1918 Navy was one highlight of my trip to Chattanooga. Another was seeing the 1910 Erfurt P-08 luger (serial # 49) in person. Best Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-15-2004, 07:27 PM	#5
luger11 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 149 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete.........I brought the gun ther purpossely because of the list of guests that would be present. When you have a "controversal " piece you need all those with years and years of experience to voice thier oppinion, and I did return home very satisfied. Leo

10-19-2004, 06:50 AM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete and others, I wonder if this is the same chamber dated 1918, model 1914 issue that has previously come up for discussion on this forum. At the time, with the information available, I thought that this was a Weimar Era navy and said so on this forum and in the NAPCA magazine. TomA refered to some irregularities and Pete mentioned the the fonts sizes on the rail and on the front sight seemed to be different. Since I am unable to personally see the gun in question and because I am unable to see pertinent comparision pictures, I will stick to my original stand that this is a Weimar Era put together. If this is in fact a true chamber dated 1918, model 1914, navy Luger, then it would be a rare collector piece indeed. I would like to refer to John Walter's excellent book 'The Luger Book' page 209 where he is discussing P04's. He says: "Note: two guns have been reported dated 1914, one dated 1915 and one dated 1918. All four are believed to be mismatches combining army and navy parts". I wish I could say that I have the knowledge of the honorable Ron Wood, Tom Armstrong and a few others whom I have great respect for after following them for a long time on this forum, but I can't. But I have been going by the book while collecting Lugers and have a strong tendency to believe in the written word until its proven to be in error. When that occasionally happens, I put a note in the appropriate book and move on. Big Norm

10-19-2004, 07:22 AM	#7
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete, after re-reading your post, I decided to make an addition to my previous post. I believe that ALL model 1914 navies would have a large flange on the pin that you mentioned. This would fall in line with my quote from John Walters book and make me further believe that this is a post-1918 navy. Big Norm

10-19-2004, 05:12 PM	#8
luger11 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 149 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Norm Mr. Sam Constanzo examined this piece and he feels the same as you, that it is from the Weimar era. But what you must realise that this gun is not a hodgepoge of surplus parts and it was not fabricated in someones cellar. If you would send me your mailing address I will send you a copy of that report. Thanks for your interest Leo

10-20-2004, 12:15 AM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Leo, I believe you when you say that this is not a hodgepodge of surplus parts from someones basement. Maybe a hodgepodge of parts from the factory bins but not from someones basement. When Pete said that he saw the telltale halos around various markings, I then believed that there was a certain amount of legitimacy to your gun. The small flange on the hinge pin convinced me that it is not a 1918 though. I also have what I call a 1920 Weimar Era commercial navy and it also has the small flange on the hinge pin. Mine does not have a chamber date but does have the upright crown 'N'. Four digit serial number but no military markings. No date on either the front sight or on the side rail. I sometimes wondered if I should call it a commercial model 1914 navy or a 1920 Weimar navy. The small flanged hinge pin and the bluing told me which way to go. I think that if you took your navy out in the sunlight and compared the bluing to a comparatively blued authentic navy with original bluing, you will find that your bluing is more black while the authentic navy bluing will be more blue/black. Its possible, but tough, to see the difference under normal gun show lighting conditions but in sunlight the difference stands out. Big Norm