Advice on a Black Widow & Mauser Banner

Dick · 04-28-2003, 12:17 AM

I hope that this post will be under the "New Members Forum", if not, I apologize. My main interest is in Class 3 guns; but along the way, I purchased a few Lugers. A Black Widow dated 1942 ($820.00) and a Mauser Banner dated 1941 ($1200.00) Both guns have matching parts and are in very nice condition. I was planning on selling the guns; but since I am not comfortable in saying they are 90% or 96% bluing and the bore is very good or average condition, I decided to sell them through a company called Simpson, LTD in Galesburg, Il.

After sending both guns to them, I followed up with a phone call and spoke with a salesperson named Dave. Much to my shock, he said that in his opinion, both guns have been redone and are not in original condition. He indicated that they would return the Lugers. When I purchased the guns, the dealer indicated that they were both in original condition.

I guess my question is, should I now assume they are just shooters and try to sell them for around $400 - $500.00 each? I would rather take the loss that attempt to cheat someone. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks, Dick

tony k · 04-28-2003, 12:55 AM

Dick, welcome to the forum!

I would probably seek a second opinion as to originality before selling these Lugers at a substantial loss. Too many fine Lugers HAVE been refinished (or "restored"), but even experts can make mistakes -- or disagree on an evaluation.

You should ask Dave at Simpsons what clues indicated to him that the guns had been refinished. And then, you should speak to the dealer who sold them to you, and give him Dave's evaluation. Many reputable dealers will back up their claims of originality.

Also, if these are indeed all-matching and in nice condition, they are among the most desirable of the shooter class (as opposed to collector-level) Lugers, even refinished. All-matching guns often function better than mismatched guns. It's difficult to say without seeing them, but even as refinished shooters I would think you could fairly sell them for something more than $400-$500. For instance, if the Black Widow grips are authentic and in excellent shape, they are worth more than $100 by themselves.

Like so many aspects of the firearms hobby, if you want to maximize your return on your investment -- or, in this case, recoup as much as possible -- you have to do the research, via books or by showing the Lugers to the experts.

FWIW, I'm also an NFA collector, as are several other forum members. I believe the mechanical aspects of machine guns have a lot in common with Lugers, sharing some fascinating solutions to technical challenges. And while Lugers are not appreciating as quickly as Class 3 guns, they are still rising in value faster than most firearms. If these are indeed refinished shooters, you might want to just hold onto them and enjoy them at the range without fear of breaking a part.

Good luck!

Roadkill · 04-28-2003, 09:01 AM

Sir, a second welcome. Would you please post some photos? Not that anyone here would have the desire to embarass you regarding the initial purchase, it happens more often than many will admit, but as a learning experience for all and to possibly prevent these historic firearms from reappearing on the market as collector items.

thanks

rk

John Sabato · 04-28-2003, 10:13 AM

Yes, I agree with Roadkill, post some good closeup photos here of the top, and each side... Let's get a few more opinions on the originality of your Lugers before you sell them at a loss. One opinion is not enough on which to base this kind of decision. If you need help posting photos, there is a fine tutorial in the Site Help & Feedback forum by Ed Tinker, one of our moderators.

jamese · 04-28-2003, 04:07 PM

Dick,
After the experts here tell you what they think, and you still want to sell them, I'm sure someone here would be interested in buying them at a fair price
including me.

Thanks
Jim

Johnny C. Kitchens · 04-28-2003, 04:48 PM

If you still want to sell the byf 42, let me know, as I'm interested...

jckitchens@myrealbox.com

Dick · 04-28-2003, 10:14 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tony k:
Dick, welcome to the forum!

I would probably seek a second opinion as to originality before selling these Lugers at a substantial loss. Too many fine Lugers HAVE been refinished (or "restored"), but even experts can make mistakes -- or disagree on an evaluation.

You should ask Dave at Simpsons what clues indicated to him that the guns had been refinished. And then, you should speak to the dealer who sold them to you, and give him Dave's evaluation. Many reputable dealers will back up their claims of originality.

Also, if these are indeed all-matching and in nice condition, they are among the most desirable of the shooter class (as opposed to collector-level) Lugers, even refinished. All-matching guns often function better than mismatched guns. It's difficult to say without seeing them, but even as refinished shooters I would think you could fairly sell them for something more than $400-$500. For instance, if the Black Widow grips are authentic and in excellent shape, they are worth more than $100 by themselves.

Like so many aspects of the firearms hobby, if you want to maximize your return on your investment -- or, in this case, recoup as much as possible -- you have to do the research, via books or by showing the Lugers to the experts.

FWIW, I'm also an NFA collector, as are several other forum members. I believe the mechanical aspects of machine guns have a lot in common with Lugers, sharing some fascinating solutions to technical challenges. And while Lugers are not appreciating as quickly as Class 3 guns, they are still rising in value faster than most firearms. If these are indeed refinished shooters, you might want to just hold onto them and enjoy them at the range without fear of breaking a part.

Good luck!<hr /></blockquote>

Dick · 04-28-2003, 11:11 PM

tony k,
Thank you for the welcome and the information. When I talked with the Simpson salesperson on Thursday, I was in such a state of shock with his response; that I really did not even think to ask any questions. Both guns are on their way back to me.

I will attend a large gun show in Western Pa. on May 3rd & 4th. My Class 3 Dealer, who I purchased the Lugers from, will be at the show and also there are some Luger dealers. In the past, I have attempted to talk with the people that deal in Lugers at this gun show; but they all seem to have an attitude problem. If your in the NFA world, then maybe you have come across Class 3 dealers like this. The first Class 3 dealer that I approached from my home area, brushed me off and said only doctors & attorneys buy Class 3 and he would not even talk with me. Since the meeting with him, I found another dealer and have purchased 13 NFA guns.

Your information gives me a starting place as to the possible value.
Thanks again. Dick

Dick · 04-28-2003, 11:26 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Roadkill:
Sir, a second welcome. Would you please post some photos? Not that anyone here would have the desire to embarass you regarding the initial purchase, it happens more often than many will admit, but as a learning experience for all and to possibly prevent these historic firearms from reappearing on the market as collector items.

thanks

rk<hr /></blockquote>Roadkill,

When I receive the guns back from Simpsons, I will attempt to post some photos. Thanks, Dick

Dick · 04-28-2003, 11:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John Sabato:
Yes, I agree with Roadkill, post some good closeup photos here of the top, and each side... Let's get a few more opinions on the originality of your Lugers before you sell them at a loss. One opinion is not enough on which to base this kind of decision. If you need help posting photos, there is a fine tutorial in the Site Help & Feedback forum by Ed Tinker, one of our moderators.<hr /></blockquote>John,

Thank you for your response. I thought that the Simpson people were like the final word on Lugers. I will attempt to get some other opinions this weekend. I will also check out the tutorial.

Dick

John Sabato · 04-29-2003, 01:55 PM

Dick,

Brad Simpson and his Dad are good, but there is strength in numbers... so always get several opinions before you have to draw conclusions about what to do with the guns... and always ask questions about the facts that are the basis of their opinion. this is how we learn.

There are MANY members of this forum that are excellent with regard to firearm forensics... this is the result of being part of a fraternity of Luger owners that have been burned at one time or another and that makes us a collectively intelligent group. The only thing worse than learning from experience is NOT learning from experience... and helping to prevent someone else from being burned by the same problems we have experienced is just one of the reasons that this forum exists.

post some good quality closeup photographs when you get the guns back and help will be on the way.

04-28-2003, 12:17 AM	#1
Dick User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: PA Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Advice on a Black Widow & Mauser Banner I hope that this post will be under the "New Members Forum", if not, I apologize. My main interest is in Class 3 guns; but along the way, I purchased a few Lugers. A Black Widow dated 1942 ($820.00) and a Mauser Banner dated 1941 ($1200.00) Both guns have matching parts and are in very nice condition. I was planning on selling the guns; but since I am not comfortable in saying they are 90% or 96% bluing and the bore is very good or average condition, I decided to sell them through a company called Simpson, LTD in Galesburg, Il. After sending both guns to them, I followed up with a phone call and spoke with a salesperson named Dave. Much to my shock, he said that in his opinion, both guns have been redone and are not in original condition. He indicated that they would return the Lugers. When I purchased the guns, the dealer indicated that they were both in original condition. I guess my question is, should I now assume they are just shooters and try to sell them for around $400 - $500.00 each? I would rather take the loss that attempt to cheat someone. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, Dick

04-28-2003, 10:13 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Yes, I agree with Roadkill, post some good closeup photos here of the top, and each side... Let's get a few more opinions on the originality of your Lugers before you sell them at a loss. One opinion is not enough on which to base this kind of decision. If you need help posting photos, there is a fine tutorial in the Site Help & Feedback forum by Ed Tinker, one of our moderators. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-28-2003, 04:07 PM	#5
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 792 Thanks: 0 Thanked 86 Times in 36 Posts	Dick, After the experts here tell you what they think, and you still want to sell them, I'm sure someone here would be interested in buying them at a fair price including me. Thanks Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

04-28-2003, 04:48 PM	#6
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	If you still want to sell the byf 42, let me know, as I'm interested... jckitchens@myrealbox.com __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

04-28-2003, 10:14 PM	#7
Dick User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: PA Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by tony k: <strong>Dick, welcome to the forum! I would probably seek a second opinion as to originality before selling these Lugers at a substantial loss. Too many fine Lugers HAVE been refinished (or "restored"), but even experts can make mistakes -- or disagree on an evaluation. You should ask Dave at Simpsons what clues indicated to him that the guns had been refinished. And then, you should speak to the dealer who sold them to you, and give him Dave's evaluation. Many reputable dealers will back up their claims of originality. Also, if these are indeed all-matching and in nice condition, they are among the most desirable of the shooter class (as opposed to collector-level) Lugers, even refinished. All-matching guns often function better than mismatched guns. It's difficult to say without seeing them, but even as refinished shooters I would think you could fairly sell them for something more than $400-$500. For instance, if the Black Widow grips are authentic and in excellent shape, they are worth more than $100 by themselves. Like so many aspects of the firearms hobby, if you want to maximize your return on your investment -- or, in this case, recoup as much as possible -- you have to do the research, via books or by showing the Lugers to the experts. FWIW, I'm also an NFA collector, as are several other forum members. I believe the mechanical aspects of machine guns have a lot in common with Lugers, sharing some fascinating solutions to technical challenges. And while Lugers are not appreciating as quickly as Class 3 guns, they are still rising in value faster than most firearms. If these are indeed refinished shooters, you might want to just hold onto them and enjoy them at the range without fear of breaking a part. Good luck!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">

04-28-2003, 12:55 AM	#2
tony k User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Dick, welcome to the forum! I would probably seek a second opinion as to originality before selling these Lugers at a substantial loss. Too many fine Lugers HAVE been refinished (or "restored"), but even experts can make mistakes -- or disagree on an evaluation. You should ask Dave at Simpsons what clues indicated to him that the guns had been refinished. And then, you should speak to the dealer who sold them to you, and give him Dave's evaluation. Many reputable dealers will back up their claims of originality. Also, if these are indeed all-matching and in nice condition, they are among the most desirable of the shooter class (as opposed to collector-level) Lugers, even refinished. All-matching guns often function better than mismatched guns. It's difficult to say without seeing them, but even as refinished shooters I would think you could fairly sell them for something more than $400-$500. For instance, if the Black Widow grips are authentic and in excellent shape, they are worth more than $100 by themselves. Like so many aspects of the firearms hobby, if you want to maximize your return on your investment -- or, in this case, recoup as much as possible -- you have to do the research, via books or by showing the Lugers to the experts. FWIW, I'm also an NFA collector, as are several other forum members. I believe the mechanical aspects of machine guns have a lot in common with Lugers, sharing some fascinating solutions to technical challenges. And while Lugers are not appreciating as quickly as Class 3 guns, they are still rising in value faster than most firearms. If these are indeed refinished shooters, you might want to just hold onto them and enjoy them at the range without fear of breaking a part. Good luck!

04-28-2003, 09:01 AM	#3
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Sir, a second welcome. Would you please post some photos? Not that anyone here would have the desire to embarass you regarding the initial purchase, it happens more often than many will admit, but as a learning experience for all and to possibly prevent these historic firearms from reappearing on the market as collector items. thanks rk

04-28-2003, 11:11 PM	#8
Dick User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: PA Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	tony k, Thank you for the welcome and the information. When I talked with the Simpson salesperson on Thursday, I was in such a state of shock with his response; that I really did not even think to ask any questions. Both guns are on their way back to me. I will attend a large gun show in Western Pa. on May 3rd & 4th. My Class 3 Dealer, who I purchased the Lugers from, will be at the show and also there are some Luger dealers. In the past, I have attempted to talk with the people that deal in Lugers at this gun show; but they all seem to have an attitude problem. If your in the NFA world, then maybe you have come across Class 3 dealers like this. The first Class 3 dealer that I approached from my home area, brushed me off and said only doctors & attorneys buy Class 3 and he would not even talk with me. Since the meeting with him, I found another dealer and have purchased 13 NFA guns. Your information gives me a starting place as to the possible value. Thanks again. Dick

04-28-2003, 11:26 PM	#9
Dick User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: PA Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Roadkill: <strong>Sir, a second welcome. Would you please post some photos? Not that anyone here would have the desire to embarass you regarding the initial purchase, it happens more often than many will admit, but as a learning experience for all and to possibly prevent these historic firearms from reappearing on the market as collector items. thanks rk</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Roadkill, When I receive the guns back from Simpsons, I will attempt to post some photos. Thanks, Dick

04-28-2003, 11:33 PM	#10
Dick User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: PA Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John Sabato: <strong>Yes, I agree with Roadkill, post some good closeup photos here of the top, and each side... Let's get a few more opinions on the originality of your Lugers before you sell them at a loss. One opinion is not enough on which to base this kind of decision. If you need help posting photos, there is a fine tutorial in the Site Help & Feedback forum by Ed Tinker, one of our moderators.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">John, Thank you for your response. I thought that the Simpson people were like the final word on Lugers. I will attempt to get some other opinions this weekend. I will also check out the tutorial. Dick

04-29-2003, 01:55 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Dick, Brad Simpson and his Dad are good, but there is strength in numbers... so always get several opinions before you have to draw conclusions about what to do with the guns... and always ask questions about the facts that are the basis of their opinion. this is how we learn. There are MANY members of this forum that are excellent with regard to firearm forensics... this is the result of being part of a fraternity of Luger owners that have been burned at one time or another and that makes us a collectively intelligent group. The only thing worse than learning from experience is NOT learning from experience... and helping to prevent someone else from being burned by the same problems we have experienced is just one of the reasons that this forum exists. post some good quality closeup photographs when you get the guns back and help will be on the way. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

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