Who is / isn't a dealer? a warning to some. - Page 2

minigun · 11-03-2003, 03:18 PM

Norm, you may have to sell two guns at a time or something at a gunshow. Get a friend with you and have him sell two at a time. It should only take you a few years to sell them off. This is the most ridiculos thing I've heard of <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" /> .

So, what can you do at a gunshow if you want to set up as a "regular non-licensed civilian" and buy and trade "for your collection"? Maybe put up a sign at your table stating that this is a personal collection and that you are trying to trade these guns or sell these guns for another type of gun. I mean what can you really do?

Herb · 11-03-2003, 04:21 PM

minigun, having a friend sell them for you is not a solution nor is trying to be a 'civilian'. If you have an FFL of any type, every transaction, incoming or outgoing must be logged. For the C&R only those firearms that fall into the C&R category have to be logged as modern firearms are outside the perview of that license. You also must permit the ATF to inspect your collection and your records at any time they so choose. Remember, they may have records from other sellers or buyers that show that you made a purchase or a sale, your records had better have the same info or it's all over except for the rock bustin'.

Stu · 11-03-2003, 08:41 PM

Just for clarity; I believe that on a C&R license the ATF have to arrange an appointed time for an inspection and the licensee's can nominate to have it at home or at a BATF office, (not so of course for a regular FFL). Have the rules changed ?

Big Norm · 11-03-2003, 10:53 PM

If someone bought a gun in his own state, then there would be no requirement to use a C&R. In this instance, there would be no need to log the purchase. In Michigan, the Luger is not a curio or a relic so a purchase permit is required from Michigan. If I buy or sell to/from a fellow Michiganger, the exchange of FFL licenses is not necessary. The C&R only applies to sales/purchases across state lines. I am sure that versions of this would apply in all states.

Now the question pops in my head, if all my sales are in my own state and to fellow Michiganders with the appropriate Michigan purchase permit, then why would the BATF get involved? This, it seems, would then be a state problem. Would selling multiple guns across state lines be the only cause for BATF involvement in the dealer versus collector debate?
Big Norm

hipwr223 · 11-04-2003, 08:31 AM

Norm,

I believe the grey area is with regard to your "intent". The ATF uses that word alot. If your intent was to buy firearms for the specific purpose of reselling them, then you are violating the law unless you have the FFL. Again very subjective because we all buy our collections with the idea that at some point we are gonna have to sell them, hopefully at a profit. Does that make every collector that sells his/her stuff a dealer???

Here is an example of a guy that got stuck with a felony charge...

There is a flea market every Monday not far from where I live. An old guy and his wife set up there every Monday for as long as I can remember. He always had at least 4 or 5 guns to sell. At some point the Pa state police must have been monitoring him, as they came to the sale one day with a couple of ATF agents. They had documented the fact that he was selling firearms without a license. His defense was of course that he was liquidating a collection. And he may very well have been too. Selling a couple every week would certainly take a long time if one had a big collection.

The Pa State police got him for the handguns. All handguns in Pa MUST be transfered thru a licensed FFL. The ATF got him for being activley engaged in the business of buying and selling guns without a license.

He is a prohibited person today. He did no jail time, but he certainly lost the ability to ever own a firearm again.

No easy answer here, it seems like a risky proposition to ever set up and sell firearms at a public event, be it gun show or otherwise.

John

11-03-2003, 04:21 PM	#22
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	minigun, having a friend sell them for you is not a solution nor is trying to be a 'civilian'. If you have an FFL of any type, every transaction, incoming or outgoing must be logged. For the C&R only those firearms that fall into the C&R category have to be logged as modern firearms are outside the perview of that license. You also must permit the ATF to inspect your collection and your records at any time they so choose. Remember, they may have records from other sellers or buyers that show that you made a purchase or a sale, your records had better have the same info or it's all over except for the rock bustin'. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

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11-03-2003, 03:18 PM	#21
minigun User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 424 Thanks: 16 Thanked 20 Times in 15 Posts	Norm, you may have to sell two guns at a time or something at a gunshow. Get a friend with you and have him sell two at a time. It should only take you a few years to sell them off. This is the most ridiculos thing I've heard of <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" /> . So, what can you do at a gunshow if you want to set up as a "regular non-licensed civilian" and buy and trade "for your collection"? Maybe put up a sign at your table stating that this is a personal collection and that you are trying to trade these guns or sell these guns for another type of gun. I mean what can you really do?

11-03-2003, 08:41 PM	#23
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Just for clarity; I believe that on a C&R license the ATF have to arrange an appointed time for an inspection and the licensee's can nominate to have it at home or at a BATF office, (not so of course for a regular FFL). Have the rules changed ?

11-03-2003, 10:53 PM	#24
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	If someone bought a gun in his own state, then there would be no requirement to use a C&R. In this instance, there would be no need to log the purchase. In Michigan, the Luger is not a curio or a relic so a purchase permit is required from Michigan. If I buy or sell to/from a fellow Michiganger, the exchange of FFL licenses is not necessary. The C&R only applies to sales/purchases across state lines. I am sure that versions of this would apply in all states. Now the question pops in my head, if all my sales are in my own state and to fellow Michiganders with the appropriate Michigan purchase permit, then why would the BATF get involved? This, it seems, would then be a state problem. Would selling multiple guns across state lines be the only cause for BATF involvement in the dealer versus collector debate? Big Norm

11-04-2003, 08:31 AM	#25
hipwr223 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Norm, I believe the grey area is with regard to your "intent". The ATF uses that word alot. If your intent was to buy firearms for the specific purpose of reselling them, then you are violating the law unless you have the FFL. Again very subjective because we all buy our collections with the idea that at some point we are gonna have to sell them, hopefully at a profit. Does that make every collector that sells his/her stuff a dealer??? Here is an example of a guy that got stuck with a felony charge... There is a flea market every Monday not far from where I live. An old guy and his wife set up there every Monday for as long as I can remember. He always had at least 4 or 5 guns to sell. At some point the Pa state police must have been monitoring him, as they came to the sale one day with a couple of ATF agents. They had documented the fact that he was selling firearms without a license. His defense was of course that he was liquidating a collection. And he may very well have been too. Selling a couple every week would certainly take a long time if one had a big collection. The Pa State police got him for the handguns. All handguns in Pa MUST be transfered thru a licensed FFL. The ATF got him for being activley engaged in the business of buying and selling guns without a license. He is a prohibited person today. He did no jail time, but he certainly lost the ability to ever own a firearm again. No easy answer here, it seems like a risky proposition to ever set up and sell firearms at a public event, be it gun show or otherwise. John