Shooting underwater

[Hugh]

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A while back, on the old forum, there was some discussion on the subject of shooting underwater. I just came across this information and thought it would be of interest to the forum members.

Some Comments on Shooting Underwater

What would happen if someone fired a rifle underwater? Would the pressure produced rupture the gun? It is assumed under these conditions that the barrel and action are completely submerged and the barrel is full of water.

To get an answer to this question the NRA performed a number of underwater experiments. In the first experiment the bullet and powder charge were removed from a .45 ACP cartridge and the primer flash hole was covered with a waterproof disk to keep water out of the primer. The gun was loaded with the primed cartridge and held vertically while the barrel was filled with water. Without changing the gun position the gun was fired. There was the sound of a mild â??splatâ?? as the water was blown up against the ceiling. The gun was not damaged.

Next the gun was loaded with another primed cartridge and the fully submerged gun was fired. No noise could be heard, but a spurt of black water was ejected from the muzzle of the gun for a distance of about one-foot. Reassured that the gun mechanism would work underwater, the gun was loaded with a Service ball cartridge and fastened in a heavy vice on the bottom of a tank. The tank measured 40"x24"x24" and was filled with water. Care was taken that the barrel was filled with water and had no air pockets. On firing (by remote control) there was a lot of disturbance and quite a bit of water splashed out of the tank. The bullet passed through 16" of water, a 7/8" pine board, 6" more of water and finally came to rest against a second board after making a deep dent in it. The empty cartridge was not ejected, but jammed with the pistol slide part way open and the cartridge caught in the ejection port. The pistol was not damaged in any way.

The experiment was continued with a .30-â??06 Model 1903A3 Service rifle with the stock removed. The rifle was clamped in a vice on the bottom of a tank and loaded with an M2 Service round containing a 152-gr. bullet. Since there was only 6" of space between the muzzle and the inside of the tank no attempt was made to place anything inside the tank to measure penetration. However, four soft pine boards 7/8" thick were placed outside the end of the tank and in line with the rifle barrel.

When the gun was fired (by remote control) the bullet penetrated 6" of water, the 3/64" steel tank wall, all four boards and lodged in a solid oak plank used as a backstop. The bolt could not be opened by hand, but opened easily to a few light taps with a rawhide hammer.

The cartridge case, just in front of the cannelure had expanded by about .032 inches and the primer pocket had opened up from the standard .209-inches to .228-inches. The primer was punctured and a small quantity of black smoke was observed to escape from the surface of the water, near the breech, when the gun was fired. The case and primer pocket expansion was greater than those usually seen when a 70,000 p.s.i. high pressure test load is fired from the same type of gun, so the pressure was probably much higher than the 70,000 p.s.i.

The rifle bore, full of water, would contain about 385 grs. of water, which is equivalent to adding 2.5 times the normal bullet mass that the powder pressure has to move. In spite of this additional resistance from the water, the rifle showed no bulging of the barrel or other damage.

While this limited test is interesting and gives you some idea what may happen it is not definitive. The results could be different if the same test were performed with a higher intensity cartridge or one of the magnum cartridges with large case capacity.
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[unspellable]

In this type of firing, pressures are greatly raised as one would expect. The stress on the firearm is believed to be relieved by the inertia of the water surrounding it. Hence the rifle and case show signs of overpressure but there was not a catastrophic failure as would be expected if the rifle were fired in air but with the bore full of water.

[AGE]

Guys,

I started the old underwater shooting post, back in about September (I think) on this new forum.

I am interested in the topic and my reasons include survival after falling from a boat in monster infested water (hopefully an academic interest only).

There is a video available on the topic, but I am too cheap to buy it. Hugh, could you post your NRA data source? It isn't too surprising that a 1911 wouldn't cycle properly underwater.

I reasoned that the weight of water in the barrel of a short barreled handgun (plus whatever bullet was used) might have the same effect on pressure as a heavier bullet of the same total weight. Therefore, a mild load with moderate bullet weight in a short barreled Ruger .44 magnum would probably work just fine underwater without excessive gun damage, although the effective range would be very short.

I haven't tested my theory and don't expect to. The concussion, of course, is another story and would be hard (maybe very hard) on eardrums, eyes, etc. of both shooter and shootee.

[unspellable]

Shark sticks fire a 12 gauge shotshell. They are fired by contact with the shark so the range would be something less than a foot.

For the falling out of the boat scenario a 44 Ruger with short barrel might work, but you'd want a non-expanding bullet. (The water would cause a hollow point to expand prematurely unless the muzzle contacted the shark's hide.) A revolver could be expected to cycle underwater where a self loader might not.

You realize this is going to get you into deep doo-doo with PETA?

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Glock actually states in their warranty that a Glock works perfectly underwater if you install their amphibious plastic parts for the firing pin.
And its perfectly safe too.

Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

[AGE]

Unspellable,

Never fear, I have lifetime freshwater and saltwater fishing license, big and small game hunting license. This should fit somewhere in there. I load solid lead .44 bullets over 20 grains of 2400 for my Ruger. Also, my factory loads use solid bullets.

[Hugh]

AGE:
Here is the website that I copied the article from:

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/May02.htm

[Mark A]

When I took the hunter saftey class the instructor told the story of a kid whose father had warned him against firing his rifle at the surface of a body of water. Critical thinker that he was he stuck the muzzle just under the surface. Gun blew up. My point is that I would be very careful to completly submerge the firearm before engaging seamonsters.