Buffed, Reblued, Boosted - Need Advice - Page 2

Heinz · 08-08-2002, 10:02 PM

Thanks to Jan and Tom and Bill and all for the info. I printed off the whole thread and shoved it in "Imperial Lugers"

thanks, Heinz

Navy · 08-08-2002, 10:12 PM

Ah Ha! So now I know Garfield is that Garrison reprobate I see in K.C. and Monroeville. Well, there goes the neighborhood!

Good to see that the Judge is present!
Tom A. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Garfield · 08-08-2002, 10:54 PM

Tom:

You Dog! Now you have blown my cover!

Doubs · 08-09-2002, 12:15 AM

Here are three pics of one of my 1914 Erfurt Artillery pistols. They tend to bear out Jan's observations of the single example he has recorded; soft proofs on the right receiver; sharp but rather delicate barrel proof and barrel serial numbers with halo while bore measurements have very little halo. (If not magnified as in the pic, the bore measurement numbers halo would not be obvious at all.)

Garfield · 08-09-2002, 12:17 AM

Doubs:

Great pics!

John Sabato · 08-09-2002, 11:19 AM

Tom A, In case you were not aware, all you have to do to see the real name of a member is click on the member profile in one of their posts. One of the rules created when this new forum was established was - No more anonymous users with posting privileges. You can use a name handle if you want, but your identity must be know to the board admins and you must have valid email address.

That rule has cut the flames posts down to near zero... Of the 436 membership applications so far, only about 6 have been either invalid names or have simply refused to respond to a request for their name before authorizing posting privileges. Those applicants simply don't know what they are missing by not being able to participate here. I doubt many other discussion boards have percentages that good.

saxman · 08-18-2002, 09:51 AM

Unspellable; It is not necessary to polish (buff) to either remove the old blueing or to reblue. There are several chemicals that will instantly remove old blueing and clean the work in preparation for a new treatment. Polishing is done to remove damage and restore the appearance of work that originally had a glossy finish.

unspellable · 08-18-2002, 12:47 PM

It is true that there are chemical processes for removing bluing. But you don't get them done for free and they don't restore pitting or wear. So the question remains, why would you reblue a mint condition gun? Is it conceivable that the original bluing can be significantly worn or lost with no signs of pitting, wear, or blemishing on the pistol?

If there are any surface defects on the pistol we are right back to polishing again. And not just any character with a buffing wheel, but some body doing the sort of work Thor does.

LP08 · 08-18-2002, 02:21 PM

Unspellable, yes, it is conceivable that a gun can lose a lot of its bluing through wear but not suffer pitting. I see these kinds of lugers fairly often. They have little finish but are not pitted. They make good candiates for refinishing and there are people who actively seek these out. At a collectors'show, one will typically see that well-worn lugers with no pits sell for more than those with pits because of this.

It is easy to prepare a smooth surface for rebluing by simply acid-dipping the pistol. At least one restoration person I know follows that method routinely. The surfaces do not need to be polished and it is undesirable to do so if there are no serious pits. Polishing will result in too smooth a surface and will weaken markings.

It should also be noted that markings may gain a "halo" from post-bluing stamping OR from wear because the edges of the marking have raised above the surface when stamped thus making the edges more exposed to friction during use. That is what physics suggests. I would like to hear others'comments regarding this.

Dave from Iowa

saxman · 08-18-2002, 04:08 PM

At the risk of belaboring the point, you wouldn't reblue a mint gun. A mint gun has all it's original blue and no damage. Like the man said, it's not only possible but commonplace for a pistol to have most of it's blue worn off with no pitting, excessive wear or other damage. These pieces are good candidates for acid-cleaning and rust bluing with no buffing or other corrective work. This results in a very good-looking pistol which retains 100% of surface features. I would do this to my own gun if it were not particularly collectable.

unspellable · 08-18-2002, 11:05 PM

I have not seen an otherwise mint Luger missing a significant amount of its bluing. This is not to say they don't exist, experience has taught me that what one sees in one part of the country is not the same as what one sees in another part.

What I have seen are mint M1920 commercials that are salt blued, making me wonder if any were originally so done. They are too common and sell at too low a price to justify a full blown restoration job, either legit or "boosted". Can you buy one, make it look mint, and salt blue it, all inside of $400? The straw has to look mint, the grips have to look mint. Or did I just get lucky?

And I have one such with a history, such that we can be pretty sure that if it was reblued, it was done a LONG time ago, probably pre WWII.

I have a second that is all blue, including the straw parts. No history.

We do have a known booster in the area but he sticks to the military types, proably because there is not enough money in an M1920.

I guess all this is one reason I run to shooters, even very nice ones, they are still worth what I paid even if they turn out to be phoney as a three dollar bill.

LP08 · 08-19-2002, 03:13 PM

In what part of Iowa is this booster located?

I have seen several lugers and a couple P38s in the past eight years that had nice smooth metal but bad or no finish. Most common among these are the eastern countries imports that are salt blued over original finish. Many appear to have been near mint before rebluing.

I have not seen a 20s luger that was not manufactured with strawed parts. It is possible it was reblued years ago. Do you have photos of one? That would be interesting.

LP08 · 08-19-2002, 03:22 PM

As a side note, at the last Colo Springs gunshow a guy was selling several lugers including a near mint (metal) byf42. Odd thing, though, was that the back half of the gun was 0% finish. The only blue was on the barrel, chamber, and frame front. I have no idea how it got that way. All the guns were consignments and had condition problems. The story told was that the seller was in financial trouble and wanted around $1200 for the pistol. He refused to sell any of his guns when the best offer he could get was $450.

unspellable · 08-19-2002, 04:35 PM

I ran into this guy as he was wandering around the Cedar Rapids show trying to sell a boosted Luger. Somebody else at the show told me he was noted for selling boosted or faked Lugers. I don't remember for sure where he was operating out of, but it may have been the Cedar rapids area.

I have two pretty M1920's. One appears to be salt blued with the strawed parts strawed and is in just about mint condition (including bore and grips) aside from questions of refinishing. It has a history and if refinsihed it was done a long time ago. The strawing is quite light in color.

The second appears to be salt blued including the strawed parts. I have no history for it, so if refinished it could have been done at any time. It has two small notches in the trigger guard (under the bluing) that look like the old time western movie bad guy's notches in the revolver grip. The bore is poor, but not worn, appears as if someone put it away with corrosive primer gunk in it. Otherwise, the pistol looks extremely clean and crispy.

Both are chambered for the 7.65 mm cartridge.

Jimbo · 08-19-2002, 05:20 PM

unspellable,

Blood stains on the original rust bluing would leave a gun that is undamaged with perfect markings but ugly splotches that would hurt value. A gun in that condition, with no other corrosion, would be a good candidate to reblue to bring to top value. Or a vet might have simply wanted to restore the finish to like new, not realizing that new meant rust blue, not salt blue.

Every knowledgable person here (which is NOT me!!!) is saying these guns were never salt blued and any that were have been refinished.

08-09-2002, 11:19 AM	#26
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Tom A, In case you were not aware, all you have to do to see the real name of a member is click on the member profile in one of their posts. One of the rules created when this new forum was established was - No more anonymous users with posting privileges. You can use a name handle if you want, but your identity must be know to the board admins and you must have valid email address. That rule has cut the flames posts down to near zero... Of the 436 membership applications so far, only about 6 have been either invalid names or have simply refused to respond to a request for their name before authorizing posting privileges. Those applicants simply don't know what they are missing by not being able to participate here. I doubt many other discussion boards have percentages that good. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-18-2002, 09:51 AM	#27
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Unspellable; It is not necessary to polish (buff) to either remove the old blueing or to reblue. There are several chemicals that will instantly remove old blueing and clean the work in preparation for a new treatment. Polishing is done to remove damage and restore the appearance of work that originally had a glossy finish. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

08-18-2002, 04:08 PM	#30
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	At the risk of belaboring the point, you wouldn't reblue a mint gun. A mint gun has all it's original blue and no damage. Like the man said, it's not only possible but commonplace for a pistol to have most of it's blue worn off with no pitting, excessive wear or other damage. These pieces are good candidates for acid-cleaning and rust bluing with no buffing or other corrective work. This results in a very good-looking pistol which retains 100% of surface features. I would do this to my own gun if it were not particularly collectable. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

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08-08-2002, 10:02 PM	#21
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	Thanks to Jan and Tom and Bill and all for the info. I printed off the whole thread and shoved it in "Imperial Lugers" thanks, Heinz

08-08-2002, 10:12 PM	#22
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Ah Ha! So now I know Garfield is that Garrison reprobate I see in K.C. and Monroeville. Well, there goes the neighborhood! Good to see that the Judge is present! Tom A. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

08-08-2002, 10:54 PM	#23
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom: You Dog! Now you have blown my cover!

08-09-2002, 12:15 AM	#24
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	Here are three pics of one of my 1914 Erfurt Artillery pistols. They tend to bear out Jan's observations of the single example he has recorded; soft proofs on the right receiver; sharp but rather delicate barrel proof and barrel serial numbers with halo while bore measurements have very little halo. (If not magnified as in the pic, the bore measurement numbers halo would not be obvious at all.)

08-09-2002, 12:17 AM	#25
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Doubs: Great pics!

08-18-2002, 12:47 PM	#28
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	It is true that there are chemical processes for removing bluing. But you don't get them done for free and they don't restore pitting or wear. So the question remains, why would you reblue a mint condition gun? Is it conceivable that the original bluing can be significantly worn or lost with no signs of pitting, wear, or blemishing on the pistol? If there are any surface defects on the pistol we are right back to polishing again. And not just any character with a buffing wheel, but some body doing the sort of work Thor does.

08-18-2002, 02:21 PM	#29
LP08 User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Unspellable, yes, it is conceivable that a gun can lose a lot of its bluing through wear but not suffer pitting. I see these kinds of lugers fairly often. They have little finish but are not pitted. They make good candiates for refinishing and there are people who actively seek these out. At a collectors'show, one will typically see that well-worn lugers with no pits sell for more than those with pits because of this. It is easy to prepare a smooth surface for rebluing by simply acid-dipping the pistol. At least one restoration person I know follows that method routinely. The surfaces do not need to be polished and it is undesirable to do so if there are no serious pits. Polishing will result in too smooth a surface and will weaken markings. It should also be noted that markings may gain a "halo" from post-bluing stamping OR from wear because the edges of the marking have raised above the surface when stamped thus making the edges more exposed to friction during use. That is what physics suggests. I would like to hear others'comments regarding this. Dave from Iowa

08-18-2002, 11:05 PM	#31
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	I have not seen an otherwise mint Luger missing a significant amount of its bluing. This is not to say they don't exist, experience has taught me that what one sees in one part of the country is not the same as what one sees in another part. What I have seen are mint M1920 commercials that are salt blued, making me wonder if any were originally so done. They are too common and sell at too low a price to justify a full blown restoration job, either legit or "boosted". Can you buy one, make it look mint, and salt blue it, all inside of $400? The straw has to look mint, the grips have to look mint. Or did I just get lucky? And I have one such with a history, such that we can be pretty sure that if it was reblued, it was done a LONG time ago, probably pre WWII. I have a second that is all blue, including the straw parts. No history. We do have a known booster in the area but he sticks to the military types, proably because there is not enough money in an M1920. I guess all this is one reason I run to shooters, even very nice ones, they are still worth what I paid even if they turn out to be phoney as a three dollar bill.

08-19-2002, 03:13 PM	#32
LP08 User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	In what part of Iowa is this booster located? I have seen several lugers and a couple P38s in the past eight years that had nice smooth metal but bad or no finish. Most common among these are the eastern countries imports that are salt blued over original finish. Many appear to have been near mint before rebluing. I have not seen a 20s luger that was not manufactured with strawed parts. It is possible it was reblued years ago. Do you have photos of one? That would be interesting.

08-19-2002, 03:22 PM	#33
LP08 User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	As a side note, at the last Colo Springs gunshow a guy was selling several lugers including a near mint (metal) byf42. Odd thing, though, was that the back half of the gun was 0% finish. The only blue was on the barrel, chamber, and frame front. I have no idea how it got that way. All the guns were consignments and had condition problems. The story told was that the seller was in financial trouble and wanted around $1200 for the pistol. He refused to sell any of his guns when the best offer he could get was $450.

08-19-2002, 04:35 PM	#34
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	I ran into this guy as he was wandering around the Cedar Rapids show trying to sell a boosted Luger. Somebody else at the show told me he was noted for selling boosted or faked Lugers. I don't remember for sure where he was operating out of, but it may have been the Cedar rapids area. I have two pretty M1920's. One appears to be salt blued with the strawed parts strawed and is in just about mint condition (including bore and grips) aside from questions of refinishing. It has a history and if refinsihed it was done a long time ago. The strawing is quite light in color. The second appears to be salt blued including the strawed parts. I have no history for it, so if refinished it could have been done at any time. It has two small notches in the trigger guard (under the bluing) that look like the old time western movie bad guy's notches in the revolver grip. The bore is poor, but not worn, appears as if someone put it away with corrosive primer gunk in it. Otherwise, the pistol looks extremely clean and crispy. Both are chambered for the 7.65 mm cartridge.

08-19-2002, 05:20 PM	#35
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	unspellable, Blood stains on the original rust bluing would leave a gun that is undamaged with perfect markings but ugly splotches that would hurt value. A gun in that condition, with no other corrosion, would be a good candidate to reblue to bring to top value. Or a vet might have simply wanted to restore the finish to like new, not realizing that new meant rust blue, not salt blue. Every knowledgable person here (which is NOT me!!!) is saying these guns were never salt blued and any that were have been refinished.