Need Witnesses please - Page 2

Edward Tinker · 10-25-2004, 03:54 PM

The thing I find odd, is why just one number? if I was trying to make it unreadable (not unspellable), then I'd whack them all? Of course, my background mind tells me that you just want a doubt to be in the buyers mind and not the worry of all of them whacked out...

Ed

Ron Smith · 10-25-2004, 07:23 PM

Talked to a local dealer friend this weekend. He has been in the gun business for nearly 50 yrs. He said he has had the same situations come up. He said he has never had a response from the ATF re; altered serial number. Unless they have a recent record of a theft. His bet is that they won't do anything at all. His son is a local Police Detective, and pretty much agreed with him. Considering the age, and that it's not a complete firearm.

Sure hope he's right. Ron

Ron Smith · 11-05-2004, 10:15 AM

This is the response I received from a BATF agent this morning. RE: 1906 Luger Frame Altered Ser#.

"I have forwarded the info to Honolulu ATF regulatory. I think the best thing is
to send back the frame and get your money back. As far as a criminal case
dealing with violations of the federal firearms laws it would be a hard case to
make. The law deals with altered or obliterated serial numbers and he could
always claim that the re-stamped was done back in WW II. It is definetly a fraud
since you expected a correctly serialized Luger. My advice would be to get your
money back . We will do an inspection of his books and check what he put in his
A&D book for your Luger frame. We will handle this through our regulatory branch
and of course if anything turns up criminal we will investigate."

My response to him:

"I e-mailed him ,telling him 2 weeks ago that I decided to keep it,
because I assumed that BATF would want it as possible evidence. Now I think I'm
stuck with it. If there is no case. And I am safe from any repercussions. I
would just as soon keep it. I purchased it with the intent of using it to
complete a 1906 Luger.
I did not alert him to the fact that BATF had been notified. So that he
would not adjust his records. If I would have gotten a response sooner, I would
have returned it. Now I'm in the position of becoming the victim in this matter.
I tried to do what I thought was right. Not only to protect myself, but because
I wanted to abide by the law.
If it is determined that there is or is not a definite violation. Please
have your agent let me know, and I will , if required by law, surrender the
frame to BATF. If not, I would like to keep it. I am a Federal Employee,close to
retirement. And do not want to jepardize my job, nor my right to retain my
C&R.Thanks for the response and advice".

Looks Like I'm between a rock and a hard place!

Ron

Scott H. · 11-05-2004, 10:44 AM

Ron,

Very interesting response from ATF. It does look like you are between a rock and a hard place. At the very least if you are allowed to keep the frame I would keep documentation about the altered serial number. Having a paper trail documenting the altered serial number and ATF response will at least keep you out of trouble when you someday decide to sell the Luger. I hope this all works out in your best interest. Will you be attending the upcoming Reno Show??
Scott

John Sabato · 11-05-2004, 11:16 AM

Ron, I think that since you have email evidence that you have tried to do the right thing, that you have no worries about criminal consequences... Just keep all the original documentation, and of course, the emails exchanged with the ATF.

BTW, for those interested, we do have at LEAST one ATF agent as a member, but I am not at liberty to divulge who that is... Certainly, there are some agents who like Lugers too!

(What's not to like

)

Ron Smith · 11-05-2004, 12:01 PM

Scott,
I wanted to go to the Reno show, but my wife is going in for surgery soon, and I won't be going. It's nothing serious, however I don't think she would appreciate it.

I am keeping anything to do with this mess.

John,
I was thinking along those lines myself. I have all documentation stored and I'm going to print it out in hardcopy. If they don't require me to turn it in. I'm going to remove the number and re-stamp it, with the same number. It won't be original, but it will look alot better. It's going to be on a parts gun .30 Luger shooter anyway.

Hey Guys, Thanks for the advice and opinions. It makes me feel better.
Ron

John Sabato · 11-05-2004, 12:09 PM

RON...NO NO NO... do not alter the number that is already there... That act is a federal felony EVEN if you are restamping the same number... unless you have documented permission.

You MUST get ATF's permission to do that IN WRITING or have them do it for you... Changing that number without permission will negate all the documentation you have accumulated so far that will keep you in the clear from criminal activity...

Ron Smith · 11-05-2004, 01:01 PM

John, No, I am aware of the regulation. I was'nt going to do it without aquiring the proper documentation from ATF. I have a friend who is a gunsmith. He has dealt with similar situations. He restored a Colt 1911 which had the ser# serverly pitted and had to be re-stamped. He is going to assist me in the process.
Did'nt mean to cause any panic. And thanks for the well intentioned heads up.

Ron

John Sabato · 11-05-2004, 01:42 PM

Whew! Thanks Ron... I'd hate to see you stumble into trouble...

jamese · 11-05-2004, 02:41 PM

Ron,
Actually I think your in a good position right now, you have the frame (you wanted it anyway) and documentation for BATF that says a criminal case wouldnÃ¢??t fly because it could have been done 70-80 years ago.

Apply to the local BATF office to have the frame correctly numbered and everybody is happy.

Jim

Ron Smith · 11-05-2004, 04:10 PM

Jim, Yeah, I was thinking it's not going anyplace. Just from the way the agent worded it. As in "my advice would be". Nothing firm or authoritative. We'll see what transpires.

Thanks for your help Jim, Ron

Ron Smith · 11-08-2004, 08:51 PM

FLASH!!! Up date. Heard from the ATF again. "You need to send it back to the dealer, for a refund".
So I contacted the guy. He has agreed to refund my money. It will be going away tomorrow.

I would like to thank all who advised, supported
and coached me in this "Cluster *&%#*".

Thanks Guys! Ron

Edward Tinker · 11-08-2004, 09:57 PM

This has always bothered me. There should be "in black and white" how to re-mark a gun. Accidents happen, someone on purpose but not trying to be criminal before you obtained a piece....

You can get automobiles re-stamped and re-registered, as I have done this, why couldn't you get guns? I am guessing because autos are reasonably national and guns aren't???

Ed

Ron Smith · 11-08-2004, 10:52 PM

My God Ed!! What are you thinking? Just let anyone change a ser#? You know what would happen then!? There would be...uh..uh...er, serial numbers changed! That's what!! And probably the end of life as we know it.

Ron

John Sabato · 11-09-2004, 11:06 AM

Thanks for the update Ron... This has been a valuable lesson for all of us... (and I am sure an expensive one for you...) I hope the "dealer" (if the ATF is going to allow him to use that title any longer) also refunds your shipping.

policeluger · 11-09-2004, 11:37 AM

Ed, its because autos don't kill people.

Ron Smith · 11-09-2004, 11:59 AM

John, I am getting the shipping reimbersed also. Thanks, Ron

jamese · 11-10-2004, 11:13 AM

Ron,
send me a pm, about which agent re-contacted you
I would like to get the rest of the story
Jim

Ron Smith · 11-10-2004, 12:01 PM

Jim, PM sent. Ron

10-25-2004, 03:54 PM	#1
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,609 Times in 2,123 Posts	The thing I find odd, is why just one number? if I was trying to make it unreadable (not unspellable), then I'd whack them all? Of course, my background mind tells me that you just want a doubt to be in the buyers mind and not the worry of all of them whacked out... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-25-2004, 07:23 PM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Talked to a local dealer friend this weekend. He has been in the gun business for nearly 50 yrs. He said he has had the same situations come up. He said he has never had a response from the ATF re; altered serial number. Unless they have a recent record of a theft. His bet is that they won't do anything at all. His son is a local Police Detective, and pretty much agreed with him. Considering the age, and that it's not a complete firearm. Sure hope he's right. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-05-2004, 10:15 AM	#3
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	This is the response I received from a BATF agent this morning. RE: 1906 Luger Frame Altered Ser#. "I have forwarded the info to Honolulu ATF regulatory. I think the best thing is to send back the frame and get your money back. As far as a criminal case dealing with violations of the federal firearms laws it would be a hard case to make. The law deals with altered or obliterated serial numbers and he could always claim that the re-stamped was done back in WW II. It is definetly a fraud since you expected a correctly serialized Luger. My advice would be to get your money back . We will do an inspection of his books and check what he put in his A&D book for your Luger frame. We will handle this through our regulatory branch and of course if anything turns up criminal we will investigate." My response to him: "I e-mailed him ,telling him 2 weeks ago that I decided to keep it, because I assumed that BATF would want it as possible evidence. Now I think I'm stuck with it. If there is no case. And I am safe from any repercussions. I would just as soon keep it. I purchased it with the intent of using it to complete a 1906 Luger. I did not alert him to the fact that BATF had been notified. So that he would not adjust his records. If I would have gotten a response sooner, I would have returned it. Now I'm in the position of becoming the victim in this matter. I tried to do what I thought was right. Not only to protect myself, but because I wanted to abide by the law. If it is determined that there is or is not a definite violation. Please have your agent let me know, and I will , if required by law, surrender the frame to BATF. If not, I would like to keep it. I am a Federal Employee,close to retirement. And do not want to jepardize my job, nor my right to retain my C&R.Thanks for the response and advice". Looks Like I'm between a rock and a hard place! Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-05-2004, 11:16 AM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	Ron, I think that since you have email evidence that you have tried to do the right thing, that you have no worries about criminal consequences... Just keep all the original documentation, and of course, the emails exchanged with the ATF. BTW, for those interested, we do have at LEAST one ATF agent as a member, but I am not at liberty to divulge who that is... Certainly, there are some agents who like Lugers too! (What's not to like ) __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-05-2004, 12:01 PM	#6
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Scott, I wanted to go to the Reno show, but my wife is going in for surgery soon, and I won't be going. It's nothing serious, however I don't think she would appreciate it. I am keeping anything to do with this mess. John, I was thinking along those lines myself. I have all documentation stored and I'm going to print it out in hardcopy. If they don't require me to turn it in. I'm going to remove the number and re-stamp it, with the same number. It won't be original, but it will look alot better. It's going to be on a parts gun .30 Luger shooter anyway. Hey Guys, Thanks for the advice and opinions. It makes me feel better. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-05-2004, 10:44 AM	#4
Scott H. User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: The Great Northwest Posts: 66 Thanks: 10 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ron, Very interesting response from ATF. It does look like you are between a rock and a hard place. At the very least if you are allowed to keep the frame I would keep documentation about the altered serial number. Having a paper trail documenting the altered serial number and ATF response will at least keep you out of trouble when you someday decide to sell the Luger. I hope this all works out in your best interest. Will you be attending the upcoming Reno Show?? Scott

11-05-2004, 12:09 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	RON...NO NO NO... do not alter the number that is already there... That act is a federal felony EVEN if you are restamping the same number... unless you have documented permission. You MUST get ATF's permission to do that IN WRITING or have them do it for you... Changing that number without permission will negate all the documentation you have accumulated so far that will keep you in the clear from criminal activity... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-05-2004, 01:01 PM	#8
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	John, No, I am aware of the regulation. I was'nt going to do it without aquiring the proper documentation from ATF. I have a friend who is a gunsmith. He has dealt with similar situations. He restored a Colt 1911 which had the ser# serverly pitted and had to be re-stamped. He is going to assist me in the process. Did'nt mean to cause any panic. And thanks for the well intentioned heads up. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-05-2004, 01:42 PM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	Whew! Thanks Ron... I'd hate to see you stumble into trouble... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-05-2004, 02:41 PM	#10
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 792 Thanks: 0 Thanked 86 Times in 36 Posts	Ron, Actually I think your in a good position right now, you have the frame (you wanted it anyway) and documentation for BATF that says a criminal case wouldnÃ¢??t fly because it could have been done 70-80 years ago. Apply to the local BATF office to have the frame correctly numbered and everybody is happy. Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

11-05-2004, 04:10 PM	#11
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Jim, Yeah, I was thinking it's not going anyplace. Just from the way the agent worded it. As in "my advice would be". Nothing firm or authoritative. We'll see what transpires. Thanks for your help Jim, Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-08-2004, 08:51 PM	#12
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	FLASH!!! Up date. Heard from the ATF again. "You need to send it back to the dealer, for a refund". So I contacted the guy. He has agreed to refund my money. It will be going away tomorrow. I would like to thank all who advised, supported and coached me in this "Cluster &%#". Thanks Guys! Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-08-2004, 09:57 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,609 Times in 2,123 Posts	This has always bothered me. There should be "in black and white" how to re-mark a gun. Accidents happen, someone on purpose but not trying to be criminal before you obtained a piece.... You can get automobiles re-stamped and re-registered, as I have done this, why couldn't you get guns? I am guessing because autos are reasonably national and guns aren't??? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-08-2004, 10:52 PM	#14
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	My God Ed!! What are you thinking? Just let anyone change a ser#? You know what would happen then!? There would be...uh..uh...er, serial numbers changed! That's what!! And probably the end of life as we know it. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-09-2004, 11:06 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	Thanks for the update Ron... This has been a valuable lesson for all of us... (and I am sure an expensive one for you...) I hope the "dealer" (if the ATF is going to allow him to use that title any longer) also refunds your shipping. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-09-2004, 11:37 AM	#16
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Ed, its because autos don't kill people.

11-09-2004, 11:59 AM	#17
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	John, I am getting the shipping reimbersed also. Thanks, Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-10-2004, 11:13 AM	#18
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 792 Thanks: 0 Thanked 86 Times in 36 Posts	Ron, send me a pm, about which agent re-contacted you I would like to get the rest of the story Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

11-10-2004, 12:01 PM	#19
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Jim, PM sent. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

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