WWII Luger, Holster

DoubleBogey · 10-08-2003, 03:38 PM

I'm new here so please bear with me. I've got a 41 byf P.08 w/black bakelite grips(Ser.2420) and holster/clips aquired by my dad in N.Af.or Italy. Sideplate is mismatched that he honed to fit explaining the soldiers often threw that piece away when they were captured. All markings this site id it as a mauser with a unique letter below the Ser.# appearing as the start of a script "L" with a short hook on the upper right--possible r?? Finish is 85-95% w/ wear only at the muzzle and stock lug. Holster has WaA195 on rear & 97 on the tool pouch inside. Tool w/o any marks. Could the pistol and holster be orig. matches and is the holster traceable re. manufacture?

Navy · 10-08-2003, 04:27 PM

Doublebogey,
There is no such thing as "originally matching" when you refer to a Luger pistol and holster because they were handled as two separate commodities and were supplied by two separate bureaucracies within the German Military.

The pistols were procured and managed by the Heereswaffenampt, loosely, Army Weapons Office/bureau; the holsters were procured as items of clothing and personal equipment by the Bekleidungsamt (SP?), loosely the Clothing Depot Service.

So any "matching" of date (?), manufacture locale (?) or any other characteristic would be purely happenstance.

As far as tracing the manufacturer of your holster, the WaA 195 may help to narrow it down, but there are probably some alpha-numeric markings on the rear of your holster that should enable positive ID of the manufacturer.

If you don't see them, sometimes the top of the belt loop covers them.

Hope this helps,
Tom A

DoubleBogey · 10-09-2003, 06:05 AM

Thank you for that information. I surmised that that might be the case but thought I'd toss it out anyway. I will check around the belt loops. Did the number on the tool pocket mean anything as far as that goes? Regardless, I'll check. ---Your were spot-on; code reads "dkk 42" at and just beneath the forward loop. Where does that take us?? bob d

Navy · 10-09-2003, 09:56 AM

Hi Bob,
I am on the road away from my reference materials but I am certain some other Forum member can id that particular code. I have seen it before, just can't remember what manufacturer it represents. The number on the tool pouch means nothing to me; have never seen it before.

Tom A

Navy · 10-09-2003, 10:14 AM

Bob,

Just stumbled into the answer by x-reffing Waffenamt Inspectors.
Your holster was made by Freidrich Offerman and Sohn, Bensberg, Nord Wesfalien.

Tom A.

DoubleBogey · 10-09-2003, 01:34 PM

Great. Thanks Tom for your contribution on this. I've got to pursue the script letter portion of the Ser.# on the pistol. Will post on a different forum this site. Thanks again.

John D. · 10-09-2003, 03:39 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DoubleBogey:
....Ser.# appearing as the start of a script "L" with a short hook on the upper right--possible r?? ...<hr /></blockquote>Hi Bob,

I've had byfs in both the "n" and "r" blocks. If the right hand side of the letter doesn't come back to the baseline, and then end with an upswept stroke (that's an "n") - it sounds like an "r".... ?? However - maybe Frank will pop in an give you his opinion - he know's these variations exceptionally well...

DoubleBogey · 10-10-2003, 03:44 AM

Appreciate that background. I am almost sure now that the "r" suffix is it given more investigation. It just isn't close enough to anything cited other than that and looking at the character above, by inclining the upstroke to the right, it's almost identical. Assuming an r-block, do you have a feel for the manufacture date?
I'm going to make an effort to photograph this and offer it up as another example of a suffix and perhaps help someone else. I've never tried sending photos so there will be a new life experience in the bargain.

DoubleBogey · 10-10-2003, 05:45 AM

Well, given that remarkable focus of conversation I wonder if it's ever drifted in the direction of Enfield ID's. Would you be aware of a resource to focus on the origin of a converted MarkIII/MarkIV to .22 caliber. It's WWII vintage and in all aspects resembles the .303. There are markings all over the piece and it's in great condition. Ahh, the country life...

John D. · 10-10-2003, 11:08 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DoubleBogey:
... I've never tried sending photos so there will be a new life experience in the bargain.<hr /></blockquote>Hi Bob..!

If you have any difficulties at all posting them, please feel free to contact myself, or John S. or Ed T. We'll assist with your "new life experience", should you need any help..! Looking forward to seeing your pics!!!

Best to you,

- John

DoubleBogey · 10-11-2003, 03:41 AM

Terry, what can I say other than Wow. Not much left unsaid in that description and background. Thanks for the history and sharing your expertise.

DoubleBogey · 10-12-2003, 12:50 AM

TAC--I will respond to your e-mail address on this. I'm afraid I haven't gone digital on cameras as yet and will experiment w/ my Nikon macro to see if I can get the resolution needed for useful study. I will verbally relay information for now. Glad to have sparked some interest.

10-08-2003, 03:38 PM	#1
DoubleBogey User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	WWII Luger, Holster I'm new here so please bear with me. I've got a 41 byf P.08 w/black bakelite grips(Ser.2420) and holster/clips aquired by my dad in N.Af.or Italy. Sideplate is mismatched that he honed to fit explaining the soldiers often threw that piece away when they were captured. All markings this site id it as a mauser with a unique letter below the Ser.# appearing as the start of a script "L" with a short hook on the upper right--possible r?? Finish is 85-95% w/ wear only at the muzzle and stock lug. Holster has WaA195 on rear & 97 on the tool pouch inside. Tool w/o any marks. Could the pistol and holster be orig. matches and is the holster traceable re. manufacture?

10-09-2003, 03:39 PM	#7
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by DoubleBogey: <strong>....Ser.# appearing as the start of a script "L" with a short hook on the upper right--possible r?? ...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Bob, I've had byfs in both the "n" and "r" blocks. If the right hand side of the letter doesn't come back to the baseline, and then end with an upswept stroke (that's an "n") - it sounds like an "r".... ?? However - maybe Frank will pop in an give you his opinion - he know's these variations exceptionally well...

10-10-2003, 11:08 AM	#10
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by DoubleBogey: <strong>... I've never tried sending photos so there will be a new life experience in the bargain.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Bob..! If you have any difficulties at all posting them, please feel free to contact myself, or John S. or Ed T. We'll assist with your "new life experience", should you need any help..! Looking forward to seeing your pics!!! Best to you, - John

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10-08-2003, 04:27 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Doublebogey, There is no such thing as "originally matching" when you refer to a Luger pistol and holster because they were handled as two separate commodities and were supplied by two separate bureaucracies within the German Military. The pistols were procured and managed by the Heereswaffenampt, loosely, Army Weapons Office/bureau; the holsters were procured as items of clothing and personal equipment by the Bekleidungsamt (SP?), loosely the Clothing Depot Service. So any "matching" of date (?), manufacture locale (?) or any other characteristic would be purely happenstance. As far as tracing the manufacturer of your holster, the WaA 195 may help to narrow it down, but there are probably some alpha-numeric markings on the rear of your holster that should enable positive ID of the manufacturer. If you don't see them, sometimes the top of the belt loop covers them. Hope this helps, Tom A

10-09-2003, 06:05 AM	#3
DoubleBogey User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you for that information. I surmised that that might be the case but thought I'd toss it out anyway. I will check around the belt loops. Did the number on the tool pocket mean anything as far as that goes? Regardless, I'll check. ---Your were spot-on; code reads "dkk 42" at and just beneath the forward loop. Where does that take us?? bob d

10-09-2003, 09:56 AM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Bob, I am on the road away from my reference materials but I am certain some other Forum member can id that particular code. I have seen it before, just can't remember what manufacturer it represents. The number on the tool pouch means nothing to me; have never seen it before. Tom A

10-09-2003, 10:14 AM	#5
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Bob, Just stumbled into the answer by x-reffing Waffenamt Inspectors. Your holster was made by Freidrich Offerman and Sohn, Bensberg, Nord Wesfalien. Tom A.

10-09-2003, 01:34 PM	#6
DoubleBogey User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Great. Thanks Tom for your contribution on this. I've got to pursue the script letter portion of the Ser.# on the pistol. Will post on a different forum this site. Thanks again.

10-10-2003, 03:44 AM	#8
DoubleBogey User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Appreciate that background. I am almost sure now that the "r" suffix is it given more investigation. It just isn't close enough to anything cited other than that and looking at the character above, by inclining the upstroke to the right, it's almost identical. Assuming an r-block, do you have a feel for the manufacture date? I'm going to make an effort to photograph this and offer it up as another example of a suffix and perhaps help someone else. I've never tried sending photos so there will be a new life experience in the bargain.

10-10-2003, 05:45 AM	#9
DoubleBogey User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, given that remarkable focus of conversation I wonder if it's ever drifted in the direction of Enfield ID's. Would you be aware of a resource to focus on the origin of a converted MarkIII/MarkIV to .22 caliber. It's WWII vintage and in all aspects resembles the .303. There are markings all over the piece and it's in great condition. Ahh, the country life...

10-11-2003, 03:41 AM	#11
DoubleBogey User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Terry, what can I say other than Wow. Not much left unsaid in that description and background. Thanks for the history and sharing your expertise.

10-12-2003, 12:50 AM	#12
DoubleBogey User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	TAC--I will respond to your e-mail address on this. I'm afraid I haven't gone digital on cameras as yet and will experiment w/ my Nikon macro to see if I can get the resolution needed for useful study. I will verbally relay information for now. Glad to have sparked some interest.