Newbie here, need info

[Unregistered]

Howdy.

I'm new to this board and I was hoping that someone would be able to give me some info on my grandfather's luger.

The background of the gun. Gramps was a commando in WWII. He went through all the training that the Army had at the time. He captured a german leut and the guy wouldn't talk to anyone less than a captain. So Gramps took his knife, cut off the guys belt, took this luger, and a very intricately engraved knife.

He told me that when he got the gun, that it came in a wooden holster which could be attached to the back of the pistol making it into a rifle. When he came home there was a sargent that didn't want to give him the gun, so after asking "politely" (ie threatening him with his life) the man gave it up but it was missing the wooden holster and came with this leather one.

I've only seen one of these types of wooden holsters and was wondering if anyone made replica's of these and if so, how much damage is it going to do to my pocket book?

I'd like it more to be able to pass it down to my kids (when I have kids). The gun is not for sale, but it sure does shoot good.

Dad killed deer with it and I've killed bottles with it.

The magazine isn't original, gramps says that the original one had a wooden piece at the bottom of it. This mag spring seems very very tight and I can only fit in 5 at a time. But I'm not going to be shooting this one again. I'm going to baby it. It hasn't had any repair work done to it, but I don't want to ever repair it if I can help it.

Anyone who can enlighten me with information would be greatly appreciated. It's marked 1918, the number stamped under the barrel and on the side is 2833. It's got 33's stamped all over the place on the gun and it has an adjustable rear site.

Thanks!

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/jam_luger1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/jam_luger1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/jam_luger2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/jam_luger2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/jam_luger3.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/jam_luger3.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/jam_markings.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/jam_markings.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[Edward Tinker]

Jared, welcome to the forum!

The 1918 has the stylizied DWM on the toggle which was the manufacturer.

Proofs? (see on your left under tech information if you came through www.lugerforum.com) Tell us what and where proofs and markings are located.

There are forms in this section, where you can print out and then write down pertinent information.

Are there any letters next to or under the serial number?

That is my standard questions, but then I looked closer at your pictures, and they show that the toggle is a DWM, which was the manufacturer, that it is proofed on the right in the imperial manner (although I didn't look close at them).

It looks in nice shape and I love the Lange or more commonlly called "Artillery" Luger, as they were issued to artillery units, machine gunners, some NCO's, where ever they needed a pistol, but almost carbine like gun. Do some searches, look in the artillery section and you will find lots of good info here. There were wood holsters made for many of these and you can find them, but they are expensive. You can buy a period magazine for it and make it "more" original.

Ed

[ratdog]

When in need, go to EBAY!!!!!!!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=13965
or here if you want to buy outright and not take a chance on losing the bidding
http://www.collectorfirearms.us/Luge...scriptions.htm

[mauro]

Jared,
welcome on the site.
Please look at my web site in order to have further information on the LP08 history.
It is very interesting the fact that this LP08 was used during WWII!!!
It means that a few stock of these pistols were still available for the German Army.
Ciao

[Lugerdoc]

Jared, You may want to check the For Sale section below for a complete new repro LPO8 stock/holster assembly. TH

[Unregistered]

I went through the id sheet and here's what I got.

1. Toggle Inscription : DWM

2. Chamber Inscription : None (unless it's under the adustable rear site)

3. Toggle Knob Type : Round and knurled

4. Grip Saftey : present

5. Stock Lug : present

6. Caliber : 9mm

7. Grip Type : Not sure about type (light brown), but it's checkered, no border, no insignia

8. Thumb Safety : back "safe" shows "Gesichert"; forward "fire"

9. Right side of the extrator : 2833
Disassembly latch : 33
Side plate : 96
Saftey latch : 33
Adjustable site : 33 in front, 33 in back
Behind DWM : 33
Behind Breechblock end piece 33
Under Adjustable Rear Site : bird looking thing
Under barrel : 2833, an "e" and then "884"
Above trigger guard : 2833 and "e"

10. Barrel Length (if I measured it right) is 8 inches

11. Markings left edge of extrator : looks like #15

12. Rear site adjustable

The holster I've got is in the "well used" category.

What I'm looking for is more like this :


Where the luger fits inside the stock.

Thanks for the help guys! This thing has been sitting in our gun cabnet for the last 20 years and we don't know much about it's history other than how Grampa got it.

[John Sabato]

The stock that you have pictured is not original to this type of firearm... It is also not on the ATF C&R exemption list from the National Firearms Act of 1934... so if you obtain such a stock and want to attach it you will have to pre-pay the $200 federal tax and file the appropriate forms for creating a "short barreled rifle".

The flat board stock is the type issued with your Artillery Luger and can be acquired and attached without paying the NFA tax because it HAS been exempted by the ATF.

The fact that you have a couple of parts that do not have "33" stamped on them means that the gun is not "all matching" and has had some parts replaced at some point in it's history... This makes is somewhat less collectible, but still a great piece of history.

Your grips are wood by appearance and look in pretty good shape.

Is there a fine adjustment screw on the rear sight? I can see one on the front sight... but it is possible that the rear sight may have been replaced with the less desirable type (not finely adjustable).

Your holster is old, but is definitely of value to your Artillery Rig...

Check out the General information pages (link on the left frame of this website homepage) to find an article on Leather preservation... using the wrong stuff will destroy that old holster...

BTW, You listed a grip safety as being present, but I don't see one. The grip safety (if present) is shaped sheet metal that must be compressed by the hand in order to fire the gun. Artillery Models were not standard with this feature... so you really shouldn't have one.

Welcome to the Lugerforum.

[Ron Wood]

By 1918 the "fine tune" front and rear sights had been phased out, so this Luger is correct as it is, the sights have not been replaced. John is correct, you definitely do not want the type of sholder stock that you have pictured. In addition to being illegal unless registered, it is totally not the proper type for your Luger.

[Unregistered]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John Sabato:
<strong>you will have to pre-pay the $200 federal tax and file the appropriate forms for creating a "short barreled rifle".</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Okay, so even if I just want to own one for historical value (ie preserving the account of gramps) I'd have to pay this tax? Even if I never fire it as a rifle?

What's the deal with these conversions? Does this apply to every handgun? I've seen websites with these sorts of conversions for my glock, but I wasn't aware that there were laws regarding this sort of thing.

And why would the paddle stock be any different than the holster stock? I'm very confused on this point.

Also, I just started researching luger parts and accessories and was suprised to find out that the holster that we have was original with these. We were under the impression that this was a US holster.

What sort of handgun was original to that wooden holster/stock?

I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the leut who carried this luger. I'm going to attempt to get the knife back from my cousin. It's very intricately engraved. The blade has a german man with dog shooting pheasants on one side, same man and dog on other side shooting an elk, hilt is made of elk antler with a cross piece made to look like two bulls legs, nazi swastika in the center and a nut (looks like an oak nut) at the bottom holding everything together. I just want to keep everything as a set for our family.

Gramps also has all sorts of medals including a purple heart and a bronze star with oak cluster. Apparently he got the bronze star while defending a town in europe. The account we've been able to piece together, from the VERY little that gramps will tell us and from newpaper clippings and military yearbooks, was that he took out several panzers while the town and his unit evacuated.

My dad said he was reading somewhere that everyone who entered Germany got a bronze star and that the military was willing to upgrade any battlefield bronze stars to silver stars. I need to get more information on this as well and see if they're still doing this.

We also have a little cylinder thing and maybe one of you guys know about these. It looks like a cigar case, but the cap on one end unscrews and has a little needle in it, looks like an oil well. The other end unscrews and has string and several brushes inside. It's a field cleaning kit, my question is were these issued by the US or by the Germans? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>Check out the General information pages (link on the left frame of this website homepage) to find an article on Leather preservation... using the wrong stuff will destroy that old holster...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'm very concerned about preserving this equipment.

I was planning on just storing it in a gun safe (I hope to purchase one here in the next month) with silica to keep out moisture. Any recommendations on preservation would be appreciated.

I'll probably be persuaded to take it out and shoot it every now and then. It's just a fun pistol. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>BTW, You listed a grip safety as being present, but I don't see one. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Ah, I misunderstood. I didn't realize they had this type of safety back in the day. I thought the question was just asking whether or not it had a safety at all.

thanks for all the info guys. You rock.

[John Sabato]

Regarding the tax... YES your Luger will be subject to the National Firearms Act of 1934 IF AND ONLY IF you purchase a stock like the one you posted...and ATTACH IT to your Luger. Possession of both this stock and your Luger without registration under the NFA is NOT recommended... It could be considered "constructive intent" by the ATF.

It is NOT historically accurate for your gun because it is not the type that was issued with it... and it is NOT approved by the ATF as an exception to the Curio & Relic List that is on their website...

Let me be really clear on this before you make a serious mistake...you are subject to the tax whether you shoot it or not... The POSSESSION of such a stock ATTACHED to a pistol like yours that is NOT REGISTERED as a SHORT BARRELED RIFLE under the NFA is a federal felony.

Possession of an original or reproduction Artillery Luger stock (the flat type) that is ATTACHED to a pistol like yours is NOT subject to the provisions of the NFA, and therefore not a federal crime.

You can find much history about your model gun in a summary about the Artillery Luger on this web site:

http://lugerlp08.free.fr/

The book shown on that website was authored by the Moderator of the Artillery Luger Forum...Mauro Baudino.

The summary on his site is in English, but the book is written in Italian... the excellent photographs are also captioned in Enlish. It is the only book published that I know of that deals exclusively with the LP-08 or Lange Pistole 08...Artillery Luger.

I strongly suggest you visit the ATF website to learn more about shoulder stocks and pistols, Curios & Relics, and the National Firearms Act of 1934... because ignorance of the law would be no excuse for a felony violation for illegal possession of a short barreled rifle (SBR).

http://www.atf.treas.gov

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/nfa/index.htm

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/intro.htm

[Ron Wood]

I believe that the description of the "wooden" holster that was with this Luger has been distorted a little over time. The holster you have is the original German holster issued with the Luger. It was attached to the board stock with straps. In the process of retrieving his Luger from the sergeant, Gramps came up short this board stock and straps, and over time the description of this stock evolved into a "wooden holster" but really never was. The wooden holster is a prototype that was considered for the very early 1914 Artillery and was never issued to the military. Only one or two original prototypes exist.

The board stock is legal to own with the Artillery luger because BATF has ruled that this configuration is truly a collectors item and thus does not fall in the illegal category of a short barreled rifle. In addition to the Artillery Luger, the Navy Luger, the Luger carbine, the US made Ideal sholder stock/holster attached to an American Eagle Luger, and the rare Benke Thieman (I'm not sure I spelled that correctly and I don't have time to look it up right now)all have been exempt by BATF and may be legally owned. The stocks must, however, be with the correct type Luger, e.g. an Artillery stock may not be attached to a Navy Luger, etc.

The knife that you discribe is a "Hirshf�¤nger" or German hunting short sword, and was used by German hunting associations.

[Unregistered]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John Sabato:
<strong>The POSSESSION of such a stock ATTACHED to a pistol like yours that is NOT REGISTERED as a SHORT BARRELED RIFLE under the NFA is a federal felony.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Bummer. I have no intention of committing a felony. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>Mauro Baudino... The summary on his site is in English, but the book is written in Italian... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Mauro, will this book be released in english? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Ron Wood:
<strong>In the process of retrieving his Luger from the sergeant, Gramps came up short this board stock and straps, and over time the description of this stock evolved into a "wooden holster" but really never was. The wooden holster is a prototype that was considered for the very early 1914 Artillery and was never issued to the military. Only one or two original prototypes exist.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Wow. This is interesting information. Gramps memory isn't very good these days, but he remembers the war very very clearly. He can't drive and he doesn't remember a lot from the last few years, but he can tell you all about his training and events in the war. And he's always been very emphatic that the gun fit inside the wooden stock.

From what your saying, this leut either had a prototype or he had a custom job.

But from what John said, it would do me better and cost me less to get a holster/paddle repro combo rather than the hassle of paying several hundred for the wooden stock and then a few hundred to register it. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>The stocks must, however, be with the correct type Luger, e.g. an Artillery stock may not be attached to a Navy Luger, etc.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Ah, and how can you tell the difference between stocks? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>The knife that you discribe is a "Hirshf�¤nger" or German hunting short sword, and was used by German hunting associations.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Very cool. Now I got a name to go by. Do you have any handy website or books which would give me more info on this?

[Edward Tinker]

Jared, (none of my buisness, but "unregistered", sounds like an interesting story,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">My dad said he was reading somewhere that everyone who entered Germany got a bronze star and that the military was willing to upgrade any battlefield bronze stars to silver stars. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I know for a fact this is not true, Bronze stars were issued more commonally in war, but it is NOT practice to give them away, as this devalues the medal. During the American Civil War, they gave away the Medal of Honor and then right before or just after the 1900's, they was a huge deal of taking away Medals from non-deserving personnel. This was still fresh in the military's mind in 1944/45 and would not have been repeated IMHO.

Go take a weekend, ply your grandfather with some drinks, coke, coke and whiskey, or if from Texas, Dr. Pepper, and talk to him. The day before my Grandfather passed away last year, I happened to ask him about the Arisaka he had given me. I knew it was NOT a battlefield find or anything, he had been stationed in Hawaii, but he told me that a guy at work at mentioned (this was in the early 60's), that he had an old Jap rifle, and he brought it in the next day and gave it to him. So my point is, I filled in a bit of history and learned soemthing else abut that ole rifle. I love to talk to old folks and they might embelish a bit, or remember wrong, but talk a video camera and spend the weekend with him. Its worth it.

Ed