TM-08 Leather Carrier Question...

Pete Ebbink · 07-14-2003, 10:58 PM

On the last page (page 79) of Sam Costanzo's booklet about the Lugers issued to German Agents in the USA; there is an inventory listing of items sold at auction on July 20, 1921. This inventory of luger items was confiscated from the Hans Tauscher business, after Herr Tauscher was deported (for being a German spy).

At the bottom of the inventory list is a line-item for seventy-four (74) 1st. issue Trommel magazines with leather carriers. Yes, it says "leather carrier"...

I should note that page 79 is not a photo-copy of the original document, but merely a type-set recreation of the list...

Wonder what folks think about this in regards to whether leather TM carriers are "real" or fakes...?

I would assume that there was not much of a forgery-business back in 1921 for such leather items...since lugers were only costing around $ 7.50 for pistols and $ 35.00 for carbines...

Wonder what actual surviving documents Sam Costanzo may have had/used when he assembled the research for this booklet; which was published in 1975...(?).

Have folks asked Mr. Costanzo about this reference to "leather carrier"...

I did notice that the authentic TM-08 carriers are canvas but are trimmed with leather. Might this be why the inventory list referred to them as "leather"...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

George Anderson · 07-15-2003, 09:40 AM

Pete, I think that the first leather carriers appeared in the 20's. Good marketing. I had one maker marked Berlin and dated 1915. I also have an artillery with stock and three magazines Germany marked dated 1915. The holster is original import with the pistol and has the same mark and date as the carrier did. The holster is almost certainly a 1920's made piece. The only conclusion I can draw is that these items were stamped with war dates to boost sales.

Pete Ebbink · 07-15-2003, 07:50 PM

Hello George,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I have a follow-up question; hope I do not seem to be a pest...

I believe Tauscher was arrested in early April 1916 in some plot to try to blow-up a canal...I have read that all his assets and office records were seized at that time but that he did get to burn/destroy many records (importantly the names of all the German agents he was "running" in the USA), prior to his arrest and resultant conviction and deportation (...in 1918, I think...).

Assuming his warehouse inventories were seized and frozen by the US government in early 1916, is it possible that these 74 TM-08's and their leather carriers were seized in 1916 ?...and subsequently sold at aucion in 1921.

If leather carriers were in this seized/frozen inventory, does this not indicate that leather carriers could have been made as late as the first part of 1916 (prior to Tauscher's arrest) or possibly in 1915 or earlier...?

Please do not misunderstand; I am not trying to argue that leather carriers were German military issue. I am just testing whether some leather carriers could have been ordered/made up in the 1915-1916 time frame for a different market...and maybe the few leather ones that have been reported with 1915 date stamps might be "real"...(???)

Just some speculation on my part...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John Sabato · 07-16-2003, 08:58 AM

Pete... I guess we could dream that they are still sitting in some warehouse awaiting discovery while we are at it...

George Anderson · 07-16-2003, 10:41 AM

Unless I am mistaken, the TM08 was not developed until 1917 or very early 1916. I will check with Ed Sayre on that. He's the expert on TM08's. I also doubt that there was alot of commerce going on between North America and Germany in 1916.

Pete Ebbink · 07-20-2003, 02:22 AM

Hello George,

I would appreciate any info. you might get back from Ed Sayre.

I am in the process of getting some back-issues of AutoMags; in which Ed had a series of write-ups about the TM-08.

I did do some reading in my John Walter book, "The Luger Book", on page 272.

A Hungarian fellow named Friedrich Blum was granted thee (3) German patents for the TM-08 development in the years 1915-1916. Patents were DRP # 302.455, 305.074, and 305.564.

The following is only some wild speculation on my part with no back-up documentation what so ever, but here goes :

If TM-08's were available in the 1915 to early 1916 time frame, maybe some limited number of leather carriers were made to accompany the "salesmen" samples of TM-08's that were being shown around. Once the Germany military decided to adopt the TM-08, maybe the cavas design was chosen as an alternate due to the fact that canvas might be easier to get a TM08 in/out of in the field...

Of course, I do not know exactly when the old Hans Tauscher inventory was "seized and frozen". I have just assumed it was in the same time frame (early April 1916) as when he was arrested...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

George Anderson · 07-20-2003, 11:01 AM

Pete, Ed says that the snails didn't come into production until late in 1916. They don't start to flow until 1917. I don't know when they locked Tauscher away, but we did not declare war on the Germans until 1917.

As I recall Bender says in his book that German collectors had never seen or heard of the leather carriers. If you have ever tried to remove a TM08 from a leather carrier, you know that they are worthless.

Vlim · 07-21-2003, 09:59 AM

I was just recently browsing through a reprint of the "Lange Pistole 08" manual. It has a nice set of photographs showing how to wear the gear and also a nice photo of the trommel magazine transport case.

George Anderson · 07-21-2003, 05:48 PM

I would be happy to post a picture of my case and canvas carriers, but alas, I can't figure out how to post pictures on this forum.

Imperial Arms · 07-21-2003, 06:30 PM

There appears to be some mix-up of information between those leather TM-08 carriers which were found at the Hans Tauscher business and those which are genuine German military issue. If those leather TM-08 carriers are correct, they were probably made for the commercial market whereas a genuine German military TM-08 carrier was made out of canvas as shown in the image I am providing. I agree with the statements made by George especially the one regarding the difficulty of removing a TM-08 from a leather carrier.

It should also be taken into consideration that it was cheaper and easier to make a canvas carrier for wartime use instead of a leather one.

Albert

07-14-2003, 10:58 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	TM-08 Leather Carrier Question... On the last page (page 79) of Sam Costanzo's booklet about the Lugers issued to German Agents in the USA; there is an inventory listing of items sold at auction on July 20, 1921. This inventory of luger items was confiscated from the Hans Tauscher business, after Herr Tauscher was deported (for being a German spy). At the bottom of the inventory list is a line-item for seventy-four (74) 1st. issue Trommel magazines with leather carriers. Yes, it says "leather carrier"... I should note that page 79 is not a photo-copy of the original document, but merely a type-set recreation of the list... Wonder what folks think about this in regards to whether leather TM carriers are "real" or fakes...? I would assume that there was not much of a forgery-business back in 1921 for such leather items...since lugers were only costing around $ 7.50 for pistols and $ 35.00 for carbines... Wonder what actual surviving documents Sam Costanzo may have had/used when he assembled the research for this booklet; which was published in 1975...(?). Have folks asked Mr. Costanzo about this reference to "leather carrier"... I did notice that the authentic TM-08 carriers are canvas but are trimmed with leather. Might this be why the inventory list referred to them as "leather"...? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-16-2003, 08:58 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Pete... I guess we could dream that they are still sitting in some warehouse awaiting discovery while we are at it... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

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07-15-2003, 09:40 AM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Pete, I think that the first leather carriers appeared in the 20's. Good marketing. I had one maker marked Berlin and dated 1915. I also have an artillery with stock and three magazines Germany marked dated 1915. The holster is original import with the pistol and has the same mark and date as the carrier did. The holster is almost certainly a 1920's made piece. The only conclusion I can draw is that these items were stamped with war dates to boost sales.

07-15-2003, 07:50 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello George, Thanks for taking the time to reply. I have a follow-up question; hope I do not seem to be a pest... I believe Tauscher was arrested in early April 1916 in some plot to try to blow-up a canal...I have read that all his assets and office records were seized at that time but that he did get to burn/destroy many records (importantly the names of all the German agents he was "running" in the USA), prior to his arrest and resultant conviction and deportation (...in 1918, I think...). Assuming his warehouse inventories were seized and frozen by the US government in early 1916, is it possible that these 74 TM-08's and their leather carriers were seized in 1916 ?...and subsequently sold at aucion in 1921. If leather carriers were in this seized/frozen inventory, does this not indicate that leather carriers could have been made as late as the first part of 1916 (prior to Tauscher's arrest) or possibly in 1915 or earlier...? Please do not misunderstand; I am not trying to argue that leather carriers were German military issue. I am just testing whether some leather carriers could have been ordered/made up in the 1915-1916 time frame for a different market...and maybe the few leather ones that have been reported with 1915 date stamps might be "real"...(???) Just some speculation on my part... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-16-2003, 10:41 AM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Unless I am mistaken, the TM08 was not developed until 1917 or very early 1916. I will check with Ed Sayre on that. He's the expert on TM08's. I also doubt that there was alot of commerce going on between North America and Germany in 1916.

07-20-2003, 02:22 AM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello George, I would appreciate any info. you might get back from Ed Sayre. I am in the process of getting some back-issues of AutoMags; in which Ed had a series of write-ups about the TM-08. I did do some reading in my John Walter book, "The Luger Book", on page 272. A Hungarian fellow named Friedrich Blum was granted thee (3) German patents for the TM-08 development in the years 1915-1916. Patents were DRP # 302.455, 305.074, and 305.564. The following is only some wild speculation on my part with no back-up documentation what so ever, but here goes : If TM-08's were available in the 1915 to early 1916 time frame, maybe some limited number of leather carriers were made to accompany the "salesmen" samples of TM-08's that were being shown around. Once the Germany military decided to adopt the TM-08, maybe the cavas design was chosen as an alternate due to the fact that canvas might be easier to get a TM08 in/out of in the field... Of course, I do not know exactly when the old Hans Tauscher inventory was "seized and frozen". I have just assumed it was in the same time frame (early April 1916) as when he was arrested... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-20-2003, 11:01 AM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Pete, Ed says that the snails didn't come into production until late in 1916. They don't start to flow until 1917. I don't know when they locked Tauscher away, but we did not declare war on the Germans until 1917. As I recall Bender says in his book that German collectors had never seen or heard of the leather carriers. If you have ever tried to remove a TM08 from a leather carrier, you know that they are worthless.

07-21-2003, 09:59 AM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	I was just recently browsing through a reprint of the "Lange Pistole 08" manual. It has a nice set of photographs showing how to wear the gear and also a nice photo of the trommel magazine transport case.

07-21-2003, 05:48 PM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	I would be happy to post a picture of my case and canvas carriers, but alas, I can't figure out how to post pictures on this forum.

07-21-2003, 06:30 PM	#10
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	There appears to be some mix-up of information between those leather TM-08 carriers which were found at the Hans Tauscher business and those which are genuine German military issue. If those leather TM-08 carriers are correct, they were probably made for the commercial market whereas a genuine German military TM-08 carrier was made out of canvas as shown in the image I am providing. I agree with the statements made by George especially the one regarding the difficulty of removing a TM-08 from a leather carrier. It should also be taken into consideration that it was cheaper and easier to make a canvas carrier for wartime use instead of a leather one. Albert