Curious about date of manufacture

UPBert · 06-11-2004, 12:48 PM

I have learned a great deal about lugers on this site - great job!

Long story short - I inherited a luger from inlaws, and it was supposedly aquired in Germany and brought back to the states around 1917-18.

It is a commercial/alphabet luger, matching parts, in good condition. It is a low number "h" series.

Anybody have any idea of an approximate manufacture date?

Thanks - Rob

Ron Wood · 06-11-2004, 01:06 PM

If it was brought back to the States in 1917-18 it would not be a commercial, since the early commercials did not have a letter suffix on the serial number.

UPBert · 06-11-2004, 02:24 PM

I'm a bit skeptic on when it was brought back - that is my main reason for trying to get an idea when this particular gun was manufactured.

Edward Tinker · 06-11-2004, 02:30 PM

Robert for anyone to give you any information, you have to give us a lot more information.

It is like saying, well, I have a fin-tailed car, and when was it made. Well, in the 1950's... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

So, if you can give us any proofs and acceptance markings on the left or right, caliber, is there a date on the top, if there isn't then tell us that, full serial number and suffix, pictures of the entire gun, etc.

Look under technical information for a print out you can use as a guideline.

Ed

UPBert · 06-15-2004, 08:01 AM

Ed,

Here are all the markings I can see without taking anything apart.

Top - DWM logo

Front view underneath the barrel top to bottom - 8736, GERMANY, "h" (small case cursive)

Bottom view underneath barrel - Crown over N, 8736, h. Bottom side of lever - 36. Next to trigger - 36.

Right side - no markings

Back view - 36 behind rear sight.

Left side - Crown over N just behind barrel (vertical). 873 near top on side of action. 36 on tab that comes up when the safety is engaged. GESICHERT under safety.

The caliber is .30 luger. I can find no date on the gun.

It has wood checkered grips with no markings (on the outside).

I don't have a digital camera to supply pictures.

Thanks for any info you can provide.

Rob

RockinWR · 06-15-2004, 06:54 PM

Rob,
* Sounds like you have an Alphabet/DWM/Commercial Luger(aka-'20 commercial). What is giving me cause for not stating this more emphatically is the suffix letter block you are reporting. Alpha DWM's started in the "i" suffix block. If your suffix is a lower case script "n" (or something later than "i"), we have an ID to pursue for a DoMfg. Check the Tech. Info under suffix for examples. Those little suffix letters can be confusing even to the well versed.
* The .30 cal. & the "Germany" marking indicates this pistol was assembled for export. Likely during the mid '20's.
* The "C/N" are the German commercial power proof marks. S/N's you have listed appear to be marked in the Commercial style. Cheeck that receiver "873" to see if a "6" isn't present as well. Or is this a typo?
* Trust this helps so far. If no camera, can you scan this pistol and post the .jpg's??
Respectfully,
Bob

UPBert · 06-16-2004, 08:16 AM

Thanks for the info Bob.

To me (a definite rookie!) the suffix looks like the middle h on list 1 of markings.

I'll check the reciever 873 marking again, it is very small.

Sounds like I better get some pictures! I'll see what I can do to get some digital pictures of the gun and post them.

Thanks again - Rob

UPBert · 06-18-2004, 09:31 AM

Upon further review... and a magnifying glass...

UPBert · 06-18-2004, 09:31 AM

Upon further review... and a magnifying glass...

The "h" could be a "k", and the markings on the left side of the action is actually a crown over N.

Here are some pictures:

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp1_copy2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp1_copy2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp2_copy1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp2_copy1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp3.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp3.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp4.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp4.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp5.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp5.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp6.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp6.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp7.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp7.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp8.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/rp8.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Hope these pictures help. Thanks again for any and all information - Rob

RockinWR · 06-18-2004, 07:21 PM

Hi Rob,
* Thanks for your clear digitals.
* I could be talked into an "h" too; but, okay, lets go with a "k" suffix cause that really does play. When you checked the Tech. Info, did you look @ the gun pictures of the suffix letters??
* According the Jan Still's Weimar Lugers, Table 1b-Pg. 15, a "k" block would have been produced in the first 11 months of 1922. Mostly commercial production as is yours.
* Assuming linear production(unlikely): 10,000 pistols/11 months = 909.1/month. So; #8736/909.1 = 9.61 months. Looks like Sept. 19, 1922 give or take a month for DoMfg. Best guess better than nothing; but, don't bet your paycheck on this date. The Weimar period was one of unrest, DWM was attempting to survive under the restrictions of the Versaille treaty by commercial F/Arms export, & Police/Army contracts may have taken precidence.
Respectfully,
Bob

UPBert · 06-21-2004, 03:48 PM

Thanks for the info Bob, I appreciate it.

What if...the suffix is an "h"? The loupe I have isn't that powerful, I need to find something with more magnification to get a better look at the letter.

Thanks again - Rob

Waschbaer · 06-21-2004, 10:36 PM

Weimar isn't exactly my cup of tea, but that letter sure looks a lot like "h" to me. Is it possible that this gun was made from left over war production, with the old serial number kept? Otherwise, perhaps we need to re-evaluate our wise books with the "h" as start of production. A bit of glare in the pics on every one of the letter suffixes, unfortunately. Who knows, perhaps we have an anomaly here?

Waschbaer · 06-21-2004, 10:40 PM

Postscriptum: That is a very lovely pistol you have there. I'm particularly impressed by the amount of strawing left, assuming it hasn't been restored.

Edward Tinker · 06-21-2004, 11:48 PM

I blew the pictures up, changed lighting and I don't know, might be an "h" or a "k", but I am leaning towards h. On the other hand, lots of weimar guns were rebuilds of imperial / ww1 guns, so a h or k is possible.

Ed

UPBert · 06-25-2004, 08:25 AM

Thanks all for the information.

Rob

06-11-2004, 12:48 PM	#1
UPBert User Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Curious about date of manufacture I have learned a great deal about lugers on this site - great job! Long story short - I inherited a luger from inlaws, and it was supposedly aquired in Germany and brought back to the states around 1917-18. It is a commercial/alphabet luger, matching parts, in good condition. It is a low number "h" series. Anybody have any idea of an approximate manufacture date? Thanks - Rob

06-11-2004, 01:06 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	If it was brought back to the States in 1917-18 it would not be a commercial, since the early commercials did not have a letter suffix on the serial number. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-11-2004, 02:30 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	Robert for anyone to give you any information, you have to give us a lot more information. It is like saying, well, I have a fin-tailed car, and when was it made. Well, in the 1950's... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> So, if you can give us any proofs and acceptance markings on the left or right, caliber, is there a date on the top, if there isn't then tell us that, full serial number and suffix, pictures of the entire gun, etc. Look under technical information for a print out you can use as a guideline. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-21-2004, 11:48 PM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	I blew the pictures up, changed lighting and I don't know, might be an "h" or a "k", but I am leaning towards h. On the other hand, lots of weimar guns were rebuilds of imperial / ww1 guns, so a h or k is possible. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

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06-11-2004, 02:24 PM	#3
UPBert User Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm a bit skeptic on when it was brought back - that is my main reason for trying to get an idea when this particular gun was manufactured.

06-15-2004, 08:01 AM	#5
UPBert User Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed, Here are all the markings I can see without taking anything apart. Top - DWM logo Front view underneath the barrel top to bottom - 8736, GERMANY, "h" (small case cursive) Bottom view underneath barrel - Crown over N, 8736, h. Bottom side of lever - 36. Next to trigger - 36. Right side - no markings Back view - 36 behind rear sight. Left side - Crown over N just behind barrel (vertical). 873 near top on side of action. 36 on tab that comes up when the safety is engaged. GESICHERT under safety. The caliber is .30 luger. I can find no date on the gun. It has wood checkered grips with no markings (on the outside). I don't have a digital camera to supply pictures. Thanks for any info you can provide. Rob

06-15-2004, 06:54 PM	#6
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Rob, * Sounds like you have an Alphabet/DWM/Commercial Luger(aka-'20 commercial). What is giving me cause for not stating this more emphatically is the suffix letter block you are reporting. Alpha DWM's started in the "i" suffix block. If your suffix is a lower case script "n" (or something later than "i"), we have an ID to pursue for a DoMfg. Check the Tech. Info under suffix for examples. Those little suffix letters can be confusing even to the well versed. * The .30 cal. & the "Germany" marking indicates this pistol was assembled for export. Likely during the mid '20's. * The "C/N" are the German commercial power proof marks. S/N's you have listed appear to be marked in the Commercial style. Cheeck that receiver "873" to see if a "6" isn't present as well. Or is this a typo? * Trust this helps so far. If no camera, can you scan this pistol and post the .jpg's?? Respectfully, Bob

06-16-2004, 08:16 AM	#7
UPBert User Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the info Bob. To me (a definite rookie!) the suffix looks like the middle h on list 1 of markings. I'll check the reciever 873 marking again, it is very small. Sounds like I better get some pictures! I'll see what I can do to get some digital pictures of the gun and post them. Thanks again - Rob

06-18-2004, 09:31 AM	#8
UPBert User Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Upon further review... and a magnifying glass...

06-18-2004, 07:21 PM	#10
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Hi Rob, * Thanks for your clear digitals. * I could be talked into an "h" too; but, okay, lets go with a "k" suffix cause that really does play. When you checked the Tech. Info, did you look @ the gun pictures of the suffix letters?? * According the Jan Still's Weimar Lugers, Table 1b-Pg. 15, a "k" block would have been produced in the first 11 months of 1922. Mostly commercial production as is yours. * Assuming linear production(unlikely): 10,000 pistols/11 months = 909.1/month. So; #8736/909.1 = 9.61 months. Looks like Sept. 19, 1922 give or take a month for DoMfg. Best guess better than nothing; but, don't bet your paycheck on this date. The Weimar period was one of unrest, DWM was attempting to survive under the restrictions of the Versaille treaty by commercial F/Arms export, & Police/Army contracts may have taken precidence. Respectfully, Bob

06-21-2004, 03:48 PM	#11
UPBert User Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the info Bob, I appreciate it. What if...the suffix is an "h"? The loupe I have isn't that powerful, I need to find something with more magnification to get a better look at the letter. Thanks again - Rob

06-21-2004, 10:36 PM	#12
Waschbaer User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 47 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Weimar isn't exactly my cup of tea, but that letter sure looks a lot like "h" to me. Is it possible that this gun was made from left over war production, with the old serial number kept? Otherwise, perhaps we need to re-evaluate our wise books with the "h" as start of production. A bit of glare in the pics on every one of the letter suffixes, unfortunately. Who knows, perhaps we have an anomaly here?

06-21-2004, 10:40 PM	#13
Waschbaer User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 47 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Postscriptum: That is a very lovely pistol you have there. I'm particularly impressed by the amount of strawing left, assuming it hasn't been restored.

06-25-2004, 08:25 AM	#15
UPBert User Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks all for the information. Rob