Pb without number or stamps - Page 2

Dwight Gruber · 09-24-2003, 12:53 AM

Remarkable. Not only no regular markings, but no workers markings, at least visible in the photographs.

Is the extractor stamped "Geladen", or is that blank too? Are the small parts--normally strawed--actually in the white, as they seem in the pictures?

I pulled out my copy of Gibson and compared the photos to the manufacturer comparisons which he presents. It appears to me that this gun is most like a DWM. Thor may have an informed opinion on this.

WAG ALERT--

I have to suspect that this pistol was, for whatever reason, purpose-built this way. The lack of workers' marks implies that parts were either selected very early in the manufacturing process, or specific instructions were issued not to mark the parts. A "lunch-box special" would likely be made of parts from various stages of manufacture and inspection, and logically would have at least some markings. An Armorer's special would certainly have inspectors stamps (if the parts came from Erfurt), or might be covered with S/42s (although the parts would certainly not be serial-numbered). Also, the barrel and receiver would only be available at a repair depot, and would have some markings (but not witness marks!).

A successful "Lunch Box Special" would have to include a barrel and receiver already mated together, aligned and headspaced. A DWM or a Mauser would have at least one inspection stamp on the side of the receiver, and the date at the receiver top. An Erfurt or Simson would have a small stamp on the barrel in addition.

I'm intrigued by the presence of a witness mark (naturally!). The mark appears to be two strikes, with two different instruments, not aligned. I'm not quite sure what to make of this, I'm not even confident enough to make a WAG.

--Dwight

lugercollector · 09-24-2003, 05:33 PM

I would venture to guess that this gun was purpose built this way in order to camouflage its origins....should any agent be caught with it.....no direct evidence as to its providence.....I seem to remember hearing about other countries involved in espionage supplying their agents with "clean" guns...

mm · 09-25-2003, 01:04 AM

I have seen so-called "sanitized" SKSs (rifles without the usual country-of-origin markings) from China that were Vietnam bring-backs.

mm

Balder · 09-25-2003, 04:04 AM

Interesting story Jussi. Here in Norway we received quite a few unmarked/unnumbered Swedish M40 Lahti pisols during WW2, this was due to the fact that neutral Sweden didn't want to piss off the Germans occupying Norway. Lunchbox guns were also common, especially Krag-JÃ?Â¸rgensens and M1914 .45 pistols.

Jussi · 09-25-2003, 05:20 AM

Hi! I am thinking that Lugercollector is on right way.

It`s very interesting that there is other guns too without markings.

Balder, are you sure that M40 Lahti pistols are Swedish? Armas Lahti was the most famous finnish firearm designer and Lahti-pistol is one of his design. I don`t know that in Sweden have manufactured pistol using his designings.

Dwight! I`ll take better photos from witnes mark but I don`t have necessery optical equipments at home, I have to travel for my work but on monday I send to You better photo from this mark.

Jussi

Balder · 09-25-2003, 11:56 AM

I was just about to reply to Jussi's latest posting when I noticed tacfoley's response - I couldn't have said it better myself!

Balder

LugerLizzie · 09-25-2003, 01:53 PM

Jussi, You didn't answer the reply that asked "Is the word "Geladen" stamped on the extractor?" Just curious as to the answer.....

Jussi · 09-25-2003, 02:19 PM

Hyvaa Paivaa Tac! You are amazing me, you speak finnish. And thank you Tac and Baldur for your facts.

Sweden supported Norway during Germany occupying, it`s a new and very interesting fact to me. Who did it, private persons or government?

Balder · 09-25-2003, 02:38 PM

Jussi,

The Norwegian/Swedish relations during the war are complicated enough to fill a few books. The short version is that the Swedes were turncoats, meaning they allowed German troop transports through Sweden and other things that were considered pro-German. As the German luck of war turned, so did the Swedish attitude; they started to allow the forming of Norwegian "police troops" (for all practical purposes a more or less regular military force) by Norwegian refugees in Sweden. There were a few refugee camps in Sweden, Ã??reryd was probably the largest. I believe it was in the last year or so that these Husqvarna Lahtis were issued to Norwegian agents upon returning from Sweden, but we're not talking big numbers here - from what I hear about 20 guns at the most. I wish I could tell you more about who issued them and why, but I will need to do more research on that one.
BTW, your country has made several great guns; I take great pleasure and pride in my 1931 Suomi submachinegun - what a beauty!

Regards,

Balder

Jussi · 09-29-2003, 03:12 PM

Dwight! I send a photo you can see the witness marks. The barrel have been separete from the gun begause I have used once a 7.65 Parabellum barrel. This 9 mm barrel you can see in all my photos is the original one. The witness marks are not aligned correctly because wrong moment. I think that the marks are made by same tool, The frame`s surface is at higher level as the barrels surface. Bottom of the marks are as deep in the frame and in the barrel.

LugerLizzie! I am sorry, I forgot to answer to you, There is not text "Geladen" in this gun. There is not any text or numbers or stamps anywhere at all.

I have used Suomi-submacinegun when I was a conscript in Finnish airforce. I liked it, it was better to carry as assault rifle.

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_merkit.JPG

Jussi

Dwight Gruber · 09-29-2003, 11:30 PM

Jussi,

Very interesting, thanks much.

--Dwight

Les · 09-30-2003, 12:25 AM

think we all have lugers that do not fit the norm. this one is special in no markings that give it away...fits an not for use under regular catogory.

09-25-2003, 01:04 AM	#23
mm User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SFBAY Posts: 82 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have seen so-called "sanitized" SKSs (rifles without the usual country-of-origin markings) from China that were Vietnam bring-backs. mm __________________ mjm

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09-24-2003, 12:53 AM	#21
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Remarkable. Not only no regular markings, but no workers markings, at least visible in the photographs. Is the extractor stamped "Geladen", or is that blank too? Are the small parts--normally strawed--actually in the white, as they seem in the pictures? I pulled out my copy of Gibson and compared the photos to the manufacturer comparisons which he presents. It appears to me that this gun is most like a DWM. Thor may have an informed opinion on this. WAG ALERT-- I have to suspect that this pistol was, for whatever reason, purpose-built this way. The lack of workers' marks implies that parts were either selected very early in the manufacturing process, or specific instructions were issued not to mark the parts. A "lunch-box special" would likely be made of parts from various stages of manufacture and inspection, and logically would have at least some markings. An Armorer's special would certainly have inspectors stamps (if the parts came from Erfurt), or might be covered with S/42s (although the parts would certainly not be serial-numbered). Also, the barrel and receiver would only be available at a repair depot, and would have some markings (but not witness marks!). A successful "Lunch Box Special" would have to include a barrel and receiver already mated together, aligned and headspaced. A DWM or a Mauser would have at least one inspection stamp on the side of the receiver, and the date at the receiver top. An Erfurt or Simson would have a small stamp on the barrel in addition. I'm intrigued by the presence of a witness mark (naturally!). The mark appears to be two strikes, with two different instruments, not aligned. I'm not quite sure what to make of this, I'm not even confident enough to make a WAG. --Dwight

09-24-2003, 05:33 PM	#22
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	I would venture to guess that this gun was purpose built this way in order to camouflage its origins....should any agent be caught with it.....no direct evidence as to its providence.....I seem to remember hearing about other countries involved in espionage supplying their agents with "clean" guns...

09-25-2003, 04:04 AM	#24
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	Interesting story Jussi. Here in Norway we received quite a few unmarked/unnumbered Swedish M40 Lahti pisols during WW2, this was due to the fact that neutral Sweden didn't want to piss off the Germans occupying Norway. Lunchbox guns were also common, especially Krag-JÃ?Â¸rgensens and M1914 .45 pistols.

09-25-2003, 05:20 AM	#25
Jussi User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi! I am thinking that Lugercollector is on right way. It`s very interesting that there is other guns too without markings. Balder, are you sure that M40 Lahti pistols are Swedish? Armas Lahti was the most famous finnish firearm designer and Lahti-pistol is one of his design. I don`t know that in Sweden have manufactured pistol using his designings. Dwight! I`ll take better photos from witnes mark but I don`t have necessery optical equipments at home, I have to travel for my work but on monday I send to You better photo from this mark. Jussi

09-25-2003, 11:56 AM	#26
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	I was just about to reply to Jussi's latest posting when I noticed tacfoley's response - I couldn't have said it better myself! Balder

09-25-2003, 01:53 PM	#27
LugerLizzie User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Calif. Coast Posts: 46 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jussi, You didn't answer the reply that asked "Is the word "Geladen" stamped on the extractor?" Just curious as to the answer.....

09-25-2003, 02:19 PM	#28
Jussi User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hyvaa Paivaa Tac! You are amazing me, you speak finnish. And thank you Tac and Baldur for your facts. Sweden supported Norway during Germany occupying, it`s a new and very interesting fact to me. Who did it, private persons or government?

09-25-2003, 02:38 PM	#29
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	Jussi, The Norwegian/Swedish relations during the war are complicated enough to fill a few books. The short version is that the Swedes were turncoats, meaning they allowed German troop transports through Sweden and other things that were considered pro-German. As the German luck of war turned, so did the Swedish attitude; they started to allow the forming of Norwegian "police troops" (for all practical purposes a more or less regular military force) by Norwegian refugees in Sweden. There were a few refugee camps in Sweden, Ã??reryd was probably the largest. I believe it was in the last year or so that these Husqvarna Lahtis were issued to Norwegian agents upon returning from Sweden, but we're not talking big numbers here - from what I hear about 20 guns at the most. I wish I could tell you more about who issued them and why, but I will need to do more research on that one. BTW, your country has made several great guns; I take great pleasure and pride in my 1931 Suomi submachinegun - what a beauty! Regards, Balder

09-29-2003, 03:12 PM	#30
Jussi User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight! I send a photo you can see the witness marks. The barrel have been separete from the gun begause I have used once a 7.65 Parabellum barrel. This 9 mm barrel you can see in all my photos is the original one. The witness marks are not aligned correctly because wrong moment. I think that the marks are made by same tool, The frame`s surface is at higher level as the barrels surface. Bottom of the marks are as deep in the frame and in the barrel. LugerLizzie! I am sorry, I forgot to answer to you, There is not text "Geladen" in this gun. There is not any text or numbers or stamps anywhere at all. I have used Suomi-submacinegun when I was a conscript in Finnish airforce. I liked it, it was better to carry as assault rifle. http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Jussi_merkit.JPG Jussi

09-29-2003, 11:30 PM	#31
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Jussi, Very interesting, thanks much. --Dwight

09-30-2003, 12:25 AM	#32
Les User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: texas Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	think we all have lugers that do not fit the norm. this one is special in no markings that give it away...fits an not for use under regular catogory.