1913 DWM Unit Markings

[Thor]

Got in this Pitted Luger yesterday, it really needs my help. The interested thing is the grip strap and unit markings. The front grip strap markings are xed out so completely I cant read them. The Unit marking that replaces them is ON THE BOTTOM of the grip strap and placed RADIALLY around the curved surface where you have to read them from the bottom. Anyone ever seen this before?

[Ron Wood]

Picture?

[Edward Tinker]

Like this Thor?

[Thor]

Here is the gun and markings! Slightly different than yours Ed. Looks I have my work cut our for me on this Luger!!! <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/KC1913DWMB2.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/KC1913DWMB2.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/KC1913DWMB5.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/KC1913DWMB5.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/KC1913DWMB3.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/KC1913DWMB3.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/KC1913DWMB4.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/KC1913DWMB4.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/KC1913DWMB1.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/KC1913DWMB1.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

ADMIN; I thumbededded it, Thor, hope you don't mind... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ed

[Ron Wood]

Been rode hard and put up wet! Still a neat old gun. I hope you can save it. The markings are indeed unique. They are in the imperial style but an unorthodox placement. I don't think I have any references available now to look up the unit. Perhaps someone who has Jeff Knoll's book or G�¶rz's can find it.

[Micke D]

Hi Thor!
The x-ed out markings on the bottom photo, if that's the markings you mean, looks to me like:
P.H.4.97

/Micke D

[Herb]

R.H.4.97=Reserve-Husaren-Regiment 4, weapon 97
no P.H. listed, info from Jeff Noll's book 'The Imperial German Regimental Marking'

[Thor]

Herb, it is defiently a P and one of the other posters on Jan Still forum seemed to think it meant Police School Hannover? The Letter in the X out looks like a P also. Interesting Luger but sad in shape.

[Dwight Gruber]

I've brightened the circumferential mark, it is clearly P.H. I enlarged the X-ed out gripstrap mark, I'm convinded that it is P.H. as well. Included is the unit mark from my 1912 Erfurt, showing an uppercase Roman R.

There's no P.H. listed in G�¶rtz & Bryans, either...

--Dwight

[Dwight Gruber]

Thor,

The lack of a sear safety mitigates against this gun being a Police weapon. In addition, a Police School would not likely have a large Centuria number in addition to a weapon number.

--Dwight

[Edward Tinker]

From what I understand, not all police guns received sear safeties? A few possibilites to include police or otherwise;

1. If police units were activated, i.e. sent to the army before being modified. (Guns in storage that have the sear and not the mag safety, it is assumed they were in storage until after 1937, so I would imagine this is a possibility).

2. It could be a police that did not get markered, or maybe a forestry, railroad or soemthing else?

3. Or simply an odd military marking?

Ed

[Vlim]

Hi,

Goerz/Bryant mentions a P.H. for Polizeischule Hannover. The 18 probably represents the unit within the school and 97 is the weapon's number. The fact that the old marking also has the same '97' weapons number and the same PH marking, suggests that a regrouping of units within the school occured and this gun moved from unit 4 to unit 18.

As schools always seem to get surplus crap it doesn't surprise me that this gun does not meet police specifications

[Thor]

Interesting additional info was offered today by the owner. He said:
"I have the original holster with this gun. Its dated 1913 and has the Xed out # on it. I also have the capture papers with it. They are dated 1945. The gun was released to a Capt. McCarthy. The magazine , which I realize I did not send with gun, is nazi marked with the aluminum bottom."

[Dwight Gruber]

Thor,

If you can, please ask the owner if the holster closure is military style or police style??

--Dwight

[Thor]

Dwight, owner reports:
"It has the mil type strap ..and has a small date stamped inside the flap..1913. I also have the little loading tool..it has a #42 on it , the holster is black."

[Herb]

Ok guys, is it listed in Goerz&Bryant or not? Dwight says not, Gerben says yes. In Noll's book he shows that the P. alone indicates a Pioneer (Engineer) battalion. Possibly a Pioneer-Husaren Bn? The time frame is good for the Hussars.

[Dwight Gruber]

Herb,

G�¶rtz & Bryans lists Imperial Army, Imperial Navy, Colonial, Weimar Army, and Police unit marks. There is no P.H. listed in Imperial Army markings, but there is a P.H. in Police markings.

I don't have Noll, but I understand his book is exclusively Imperial marks.

The military-style holster makes me continue to lean more toward its being an improper or non-standard Imperial mark, than a Police mark on a Luger which otherwise has no characteristic Police elements.

I have to tell you, though, that this presses the limit of my expertise and I won't be surprised by any really authoritative answer.

--Dwight

[Edward Tinker]

Dwight, I have a 1918 that I will write up in a couple of months, as it isn't fully mine yet. But it has two matching police magazines, matching tool and came in an LZA holster. The holster is a military style, but since it has the two magazines, a matching tool, and the gun is obviously a police with a sear safety, I am inclined to believe that not all police guns were obvious! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Ed