Are these repro grips ?

Stu · 11-14-2002, 05:21 PM

Hi all. I'm looking at a 1917 Erfurt which is a supposed WWII bringback, but I'm not happy the grips are original. I base this on the fact that in the pictures the front top curve of the left grip is too far behind the curve on the sideplate. Can anyone offer an opinion as to their originality ? Asking $650 which I think is a little to much.

When I asked the seller this is the response I got;

"I asked the same question when I got it. The veteran told me that he got it exactly like that. I then asked the gunseller who did the transfer to my name and he also told me that the grips were ok. Actually according to him, is quite rare finding WWI reissue lugers with this WWI type of grip, since most of them were replaced with the WW2 darker type grip when they were being reissued."

I think the answer may be incorrect.

What markings should appear on the inside of genuine WWI and WWII grips ?

Thanks, Stu

Ps sorry, I should have put this in the restoration or general forums.

Pete Ebbink · 11-14-2002, 05:49 PM

Hello Stuart,

The resolution of your photos do not show a lot of detail, but here are my thoughts :

1. Erfurt grips would usually have the Crown/gothic letter inspector's stamp on the inside of each grip panel. They are small, and are easy to miss. My 1913/1920 double date Erfurt also has the last 2 numbers of the gun's serial number stamped on the inside of the wooden grip panels as well.

2. The wear of a luger should match, somewhat, the wear of the grips. That is, a mint luger should not have worn grips and vice versa...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Stu · 11-14-2002, 06:18 PM

Thanks Pete. Those are the best pics I can get from the seller, (via email, can't see the actual gun), to me the grips appear to clean and sharp to match the gun.

It's that gap between the top corner and the sideplate that bugs me; it's identical to the gap on my byf41, and I know those are modern repros as I put them on ! None of the genuine guns pictured on the forum seem to display that gap and my commercial doesn't either.

He claims they're WWII replacements so I hope someone may post the correct internal markings so I can quiz the seller.

Stu

Pete Ebbink · 11-14-2002, 06:43 PM

Stu,

Here is a photo of one of my 1913/1920 Erfurst grips...the other side has the same proofs but someone carved their initials "E-F" into them, as well.

larger image~~ Grips

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

policeluger · 11-14-2002, 06:46 PM

Stu, I think Pete is right on. I have one Luger outside of the range I collect and I keep it because it has the most stone perfect grip SN'ed to the gun. It's a 1916 DWM and the grips do not have that gap you are looking at. Also checked a minty 1917 Erfurt police rework with Erfurt proofed grips and last 2 SN# to gun, it again does not show a gap. As too if they are WW2 replacement, that I would not be sure of, but the grips do have that look of new repo.

Heinz · 11-14-2002, 07:41 PM

Stu, the gap you show is more pronounced than the gap on the serial numbered grips on my 1918 DWM. In turn my 1915 Police reworks DWM that has a early to mid Nazi proof on the apparantly original barrel has even closer fitting grips than the 1918. These grips are not numbered to the 1915 and may have been installed when it got "policed." There is nothing universally shoddy about Weimar or early Nazi era workmanship. I would not classify even the 1918 DWMs as badly fitted by modern standards. Not as nice as the earlier models but not crude thrown together last ditch stuff either. I believe there are a lot of myths out there to cover poor quality replacement parts that were available in the 50s and 60s.

Stu · 11-14-2002, 08:00 PM

Thanks for all the advice. The seller is stating these are WWII replacements, but I'm not convinced. The gap and the sharpness of the checkering just doesn't look right to me.

What should WWII grip markings be ?

Thanks again, Stu

policeluger · 11-14-2002, 09:20 PM

On the 1916 DWM above noted, I counted 7 full diamonds in a line from top of mag button to top of grip. Now this is a straight line about 1/64th or so from the edge of grip. Hope this helps

policeluger · 11-14-2002, 11:04 PM

Go to "new member forun"..."hi everyone" and look at Manuels pictures of his WW1 DWM, looks like there is that gap being talked about here?

LP08 · 11-15-2002, 02:02 AM

Those look like $25 SILE grips made in the last five years. They look nothing like WW2 "replacement grips" which probably have manufacturing stamps, factory code or inspection stamp on them. Without the factory grips, this luger is worth around $350-450 depending on where you live and the mechanical soundness of the pistol. You were right to suspect the odd looking grips. The stories the seller is feeding you are nonsense.

Lugerdoc · 11-15-2002, 07:15 AM

Stu, I can tell by the course checkering that these are the made in India type new repro grips that I sell for $25. Tom

Stu · 11-15-2002, 07:46 AM

Thanks again all. I think they're 'wrong' after considering all the good advice posted here.

I shall tell the seller my OPINION [img]smile.gif[/img] and see if they want to negotiate on price.

The hunt goes on ! Thanks, Stu

Edward Tinker · 11-16-2002, 07:55 PM

I think a mismatched toggle or other numbered part makes a gun a shooter?

But I don't think many collectors think a set of grips drops them in price that much, as compared to a matched part?

What do others feel about this?

Stu · 11-16-2002, 09:01 PM

Hi Edward. I completely agree with your comment ref the matched parts versus grips.

The value of the grips is reasonably quantifiable. On a pragmatic level, lets say I took the grips off the gun to sell for whatever reason; repro grips $25 or less ? Originals $50 - $100. I think you'd agree that this needs to be taken into account when deciding how much to offer, as the difference in value represents up to 20% of the price of the gun ?

Dwight Gruber · 11-16-2002, 11:14 PM

Personally, I consider matching grips only somewhat less unlikely than a matching magazine, if more believeable when they appear. I don't -expect- them on any but the highest-level guns, and consider them a bonus when they are attached. For me, unmatched grips do not carry the stigma of an unmatched part.

--Dwight

LP08 · 11-17-2002, 02:22 PM

Considering the high prices attached to all original (slang term "matching") lugers, you need to have original grip panels, also. If someone offers me a luger all matching but repro grips at a $1100 price, I have to laugh. Repro grips means missing two of the most fragile of the original parts. Therefore, if it is all matching except grips, it is low value for the type (currently $350-500).

To estimate the value of ANY mismatched part, take the collector value for the piece and subtract the shooter value. If the gun is worth $800 if all-original, then mismatched grips or a missing firing pin or a replaced takedown lever are worth $400 in value loss. If a part is completely missing, also deduct the cost of buying a replacement part. Therefore, if a luger is all matched, 95%, with Franzite grips--the value is $450 minus $40-80 that it costs to get replacement grips fitted.

Edward Tinker · 11-17-2002, 04:19 PM

I can see your point, but dropping a $800 gun to $350 to $500 for wrong grips is a bit excessive to me.

But, maybe that is why original grips go for so much on e-bay?

Also, the cheapest in two years I have seen a Luger is $395 and the next cheapest was a nickled at $500. I haven't seen any "shooters" for $350 and if anyone has one for sale, I should consider sending you my C&R and a check. [img]wink.gif[/img] (the $500 to $700 appears to be the normal in Washington State for a run of the mill shooter).

Stu · 11-17-2002, 05:11 PM

I'd be a happy person to find a $350 shooter. I hear tell of these beasts, but I've yet to see one in my neck of the woods ! I know bargains exist out there, but they're not as common as they used to be. I'd have to agree with Edward that it's not common to find much under $500.

As to the grip question; I buy shooter grade guns as I can't afford collector prices. I still appreciate originality, and to me grips play a part in the character and patina of a gun. Modern repros just don't match the character of an older worn gun.

11-14-2002, 05:21 PM	#1
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Are these repro grips ? Hi all. I'm looking at a 1917 Erfurt which is a supposed WWII bringback, but I'm not happy the grips are original. I base this on the fact that in the pictures the front top curve of the left grip is too far behind the curve on the sideplate. Can anyone offer an opinion as to their originality ? Asking $650 which I think is a little to much. When I asked the seller this is the response I got; "I asked the same question when I got it. The veteran told me that he got it exactly like that. I then asked the gunseller who did the transfer to my name and he also told me that the grips were ok. Actually according to him, is quite rare finding WWI reissue lugers with this WWI type of grip, since most of them were replaced with the WW2 darker type grip when they were being reissued." I think the answer may be incorrect. What markings should appear on the inside of genuine WWI and WWII grips ? Thanks, Stu Ps sorry, I should have put this in the restoration or general forums.

11-15-2002, 07:15 AM	#11
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Stu, I can tell by the course checkering that these are the made in India type new repro grips that I sell for $25. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-16-2002, 07:55 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I think a mismatched toggle or other numbered part makes a gun a shooter? But I don't think many collectors think a set of grips drops them in price that much, as compared to a matched part? What do others feel about this? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-17-2002, 04:19 PM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I can see your point, but dropping a $800 gun to $350 to $500 for wrong grips is a bit excessive to me. But, maybe that is why original grips go for so much on e-bay? Also, the cheapest in two years I have seen a Luger is $395 and the next cheapest was a nickled at $500. I haven't seen any "shooters" for $350 and if anyone has one for sale, I should consider sending you my C&R and a check. [img]wink.gif[/img] (the $500 to $700 appears to be the normal in Washington State for a run of the mill shooter). __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

11-14-2002, 05:49 PM	#2
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Stuart, The resolution of your photos do not show a lot of detail, but here are my thoughts : 1. Erfurt grips would usually have the Crown/gothic letter inspector's stamp on the inside of each grip panel. They are small, and are easy to miss. My 1913/1920 double date Erfurt also has the last 2 numbers of the gun's serial number stamped on the inside of the wooden grip panels as well. 2. The wear of a luger should match, somewhat, the wear of the grips. That is, a mint luger should not have worn grips and vice versa... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-14-2002, 06:18 PM	#3
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Thanks Pete. Those are the best pics I can get from the seller, (via email, can't see the actual gun), to me the grips appear to clean and sharp to match the gun. It's that gap between the top corner and the sideplate that bugs me; it's identical to the gap on my byf41, and I know those are modern repros as I put them on ! None of the genuine guns pictured on the forum seem to display that gap and my commercial doesn't either. He claims they're WWII replacements so I hope someone may post the correct internal markings so I can quiz the seller. Stu

11-14-2002, 06:43 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Stu, Here is a photo of one of my 1913/1920 Erfurst grips...the other side has the same proofs but someone carved their initials "E-F" into them, as well. larger image~~ Grips Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

11-14-2002, 06:46 PM	#5
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Stu, I think Pete is right on. I have one Luger outside of the range I collect and I keep it because it has the most stone perfect grip SN'ed to the gun. It's a 1916 DWM and the grips do not have that gap you are looking at. Also checked a minty 1917 Erfurt police rework with Erfurt proofed grips and last 2 SN# to gun, it again does not show a gap. As too if they are WW2 replacement, that I would not be sure of, but the grips do have that look of new repo.

11-14-2002, 07:41 PM	#6
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	Stu, the gap you show is more pronounced than the gap on the serial numbered grips on my 1918 DWM. In turn my 1915 Police reworks DWM that has a early to mid Nazi proof on the apparantly original barrel has even closer fitting grips than the 1918. These grips are not numbered to the 1915 and may have been installed when it got "policed." There is nothing universally shoddy about Weimar or early Nazi era workmanship. I would not classify even the 1918 DWMs as badly fitted by modern standards. Not as nice as the earlier models but not crude thrown together last ditch stuff either. I believe there are a lot of myths out there to cover poor quality replacement parts that were available in the 50s and 60s.

11-14-2002, 08:00 PM	#7
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Thanks for all the advice. The seller is stating these are WWII replacements, but I'm not convinced. The gap and the sharpness of the checkering just doesn't look right to me. What should WWII grip markings be ? Thanks again, Stu

11-14-2002, 09:20 PM	#8
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	On the 1916 DWM above noted, I counted 7 full diamonds in a line from top of mag button to top of grip. Now this is a straight line about 1/64th or so from the edge of grip. Hope this helps

11-14-2002, 11:04 PM	#9
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Go to "new member forun"..."hi everyone" and look at Manuels pictures of his WW1 DWM, looks like there is that gap being talked about here?

11-15-2002, 02:02 AM	#10
LP08 User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Those look like $25 SILE grips made in the last five years. They look nothing like WW2 "replacement grips" which probably have manufacturing stamps, factory code or inspection stamp on them. Without the factory grips, this luger is worth around $350-450 depending on where you live and the mechanical soundness of the pistol. You were right to suspect the odd looking grips. The stories the seller is feeding you are nonsense.

11-15-2002, 07:46 AM	#12
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Thanks again all. I think they're 'wrong' after considering all the good advice posted here. I shall tell the seller my OPINION [img]smile.gif[/img] and see if they want to negotiate on price. The hunt goes on ! Thanks, Stu

11-16-2002, 09:01 PM	#14
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Hi Edward. I completely agree with your comment ref the matched parts versus grips. The value of the grips is reasonably quantifiable. On a pragmatic level, lets say I took the grips off the gun to sell for whatever reason; repro grips $25 or less ? Originals $50 - $100. I think you'd agree that this needs to be taken into account when deciding how much to offer, as the difference in value represents up to 20% of the price of the gun ?

11-16-2002, 11:14 PM	#15
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Personally, I consider matching grips only somewhat less unlikely than a matching magazine, if more believeable when they appear. I don't -expect- them on any but the highest-level guns, and consider them a bonus when they are attached. For me, unmatched grips do not carry the stigma of an unmatched part. --Dwight

11-17-2002, 02:22 PM	#16
LP08 User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Considering the high prices attached to all original (slang term "matching") lugers, you need to have original grip panels, also. If someone offers me a luger all matching but repro grips at a $1100 price, I have to laugh. Repro grips means missing two of the most fragile of the original parts. Therefore, if it is all matching except grips, it is low value for the type (currently $350-500). To estimate the value of ANY mismatched part, take the collector value for the piece and subtract the shooter value. If the gun is worth $800 if all-original, then mismatched grips or a missing firing pin or a replaced takedown lever are worth $400 in value loss. If a part is completely missing, also deduct the cost of buying a replacement part. Therefore, if a luger is all matched, 95%, with Franzite grips--the value is $450 minus $40-80 that it costs to get replacement grips fitted.

11-17-2002, 05:11 PM	#18
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	I'd be a happy person to find a $350 shooter. I hear tell of these beasts, but I've yet to see one in my neck of the woods ! I know bargains exist out there, but they're not as common as they used to be. I'd have to agree with Edward that it's not common to find much under $500. As to the grip question; I buy shooter grade guns as I can't afford collector prices. I still appreciate originality, and to me grips play a part in the character and patina of a gun. Modern repros just don't match the character of an older worn gun.