Found this 9mm Luger ammo vs 9mm

[mrerick]

An article full of hot air.

SAAMI publishes modern specifications for 9mm by 19mm Luger ammunition. Either a modern manufacturer follows these specifications and enters the market responsibly or they don't.

Gun manufacturers design firearms to handle SAAMI specification cartridges, then test them to ensure safe operation.

Guns developed prior to the SAAMI specifications also complied with diverse standards that differed from the SAAMI standards. Wartime Lugers did not comply with SAAMI standards because those standards didn't exist at the time. But this article is not about wartime Luger pistols.

Cartridges go by a variety of marketing names. The original name of the 9mm x 19mm cartridge was the "9mm Parabellum". The article author doesn't even mention that name in his overview.

ALL 9mm Luger ammunition is tapered. It's in the specification.



It tapers from the 9.96mm diameter base to the 9.65mm mouth, which is where the cartridge headspaces.

Nato standard "STANAG 4090" is a 1982 standard issued separately by NATO for their service cartridge. This specification is for a +P variant of the standard 9mm x 19mm pistol round with the same dimensional specifications as the 9mm Parabellum round.

In the United States, the cartridge is also know by a US Military specification: 9mm NATO 124 MC M882 Specs:MIL-C-7050

It is focused on interchangeability and the NATO process is discussed here:

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovc...Pellegrino.pdf

A good overview:

https://ammunitionstore.com/content/...Parabellum.pdf

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by mrerick

--- snip ---
Nato standard "STANAG 4090" is a 1982 standard issued separately by NATO for their service cartridge. This specification is for a +P variant of the standard 9mm x 19mm pistol round with the same dimensional specifications as the 9mm Parabellum round.
--- snip ---

Respectfully, and with no offense intended, Annex C to STANAG 4090, Edition 2, in the section entitled, in part, "... NATO 9mm AMMUNITION" specifies the mean chamber pressure, transducer, "shall not exceed 230 MPa".

A quick conversion of 230 MPa to PSI yields 33,358.7 PSI. SAAMI maximum average chamber pressure for the (non +P) 9 mm Luger is 35,000 PSI

In short, STANAG 4090 calls for NATO compliant 9x19 ammunition to be loaded to a lower maximum average chamber pressure that that permissible under SAAMI.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Kyrie

Respectfully, and with no offense intended, Annex C to STANAG 4090, Edition 2, in the section entitled, in part, "... NATO 9mm AMMUNITION" specifies the mean chamber pressure, transducer, "shall not exceed 230 MPa".

A quick conversion of 230 MPa to PSI yields 33,358.7 PSI. SAAMI maximum average chamber pressure for the (non +P) 9 mm Luger is 35,000 PSI

In short, STANAG 4090 calls for NATO compliant 9x19 ammunition to be loaded to a lower maximum average chamber pressure that that permissible under SAAMI.

Hi,

Don is absolutely correct here, just as I was two or three months ago. You are just repeating your misunderstanding over and over with the hope that someone, anyone, will believe it. Don is right in suggesting that you spend more study time on this often misunderstood and somewhat confusing topic.

Also please check the warning label on each box of 9mm NATO ammo, commercially sold by Walmart, that warns that Winchester 9mm NATO is loaded to 10 to 15% higher pressure than commercial 9mm Luger cartridges. Your comments on Winchester's warning label are welcomed.


Respectfully,


Sieger

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

Don is absolutely correct here, just as I was two or three months ago. You are just repeating your misunderstanding over and over with the hope that someone, anyone, will believe it. Don is right in suggesting that you spend more study time on this often misunderstood and somewhat confusing topic.

Also please check the warning label on each box of 9mm NATO ammo, commercially sold by Walmart, that warns that Winchester 9mm NATO is loaded to 10 to 15% higher pressure than commercial 9mm Luger cartridges. Your comments on Winchester's warning label are welcomed.


Respectfully,


Sieger

Actually it's even worse than that.

NATO is primarily a political organization and only secondarily a military alliance. Each NATO signatory is free to ignore any and all NATO agreements (including all the STANAG) if the signatory finds those agreements to be counter to the national security of the signatory.

Net result of that is each NATO signatory fields whatever equipment (including ammunition) that meets the needs of the signatory, STANAG be damned.

Re the marking on boxes of Winchester commercial ammunition, take them all with a grain of salt. Not too long ago Winchester began marketing 7.62x25 Tokarev ammunition in boxes marked "Winchester", cartridges head stamped "Winchester", with performance data for "Winchester 7.62x25 Tokarev" on the Winchester web site.

Nowhere did Winchester acknowledge that ammunition was produced by S&B, in the Czech republic, and marked and packaged by S&B as Winchester ammunition. It was, in reality, Czech S&B 7.62x25 Tokarev ammunition and it's only relation to Winchester was Winchester's check book (pun intended).

In terms of US Army 9x19 ammunition, somewhere I have a US Army ammunition TM that gives data on commercial 9x19 and US Army 9x19. The TM sez US commercial 9x19 has an average max chamber pressure of 36,000 psi, and US Army NATO 9x19 has an average maximum chamber pressure of 27,000 psi. That same TM sez the use of commercial 9x19 ammunition in the M9 pistol is not authorized.

What's the truth here?

The truth is there isn't a single truth. There are a number of truths, and they all conflict in some way.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by mrerick

An article full of hot air.

SAAMI publishes modern specifications for 9mm by 19mm Luger ammunition. Either a modern manufacturer follows these specifications and enters the market responsibly or they don't.

Gun manufacturers design firearms to handle SAAMI specification cartridges, then test them to ensure safe operation.

Guns developed prior to the SAAMI specifications also complied with diverse standards that differed from the SAAMI standards. Wartime Lugers did not comply with SAAMI standards because those standards didn't exist at the time. But this article is not about wartime Luger pistols.

Cartridges go by a variety of marketing names. The original name of the 9mm x 19mm cartridge was the "9mm Parabellum". The article author doesn't even mention that name in his overview.

ALL 9mm Luger ammunition is tapered. It's in the specification.



It tapers from the 9.96mm diameter base to the 9.65mm mouth, which is where the cartridge headspaces.

Nato standard "STANAG 4090" is a 1982 standard issued separately by NATO for their service cartridge. This specification is for a +P variant of the standard 9mm x 19mm pistol round with the same dimensional specifications as the 9mm Parabellum round.

In the United States, the cartridge is also know by a US Military specification: 9mm NATO 124 MC M882 Specs:MIL-C-7050

It is focused on interchangeability and the NATO process is discussed here:

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovc...Pellegrino.pdf

A good overview:

https://ammunitionstore.com/content/...Parabellum.pdf

mrerick,

Bump for 99.99% of this post!!!

Except, I disagree that a case as tapered as the 9mm Luger head spaces on the mouth of the case.


Respectfully,


Sieger