Fiocchi 9MM FMJ-FP COMBATAvailable

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

GT,
what is the code on the box, AE have at least 3 124 gr 9mm loadings, none are +P.

All "nato" ammo is not the same, commercial "nato" which should be hotter, is not- if the fps data on the boxes are to be believed!

Seiger,
have you crono'd any Nato ammo? if so which brands or which military ammo.

I can't agree that "handloading" is the ultimate to make a 9mm luger run well; I have and do use at least 4 or 6 brands of 115 and 124 gr ball ammo that works equally well and will run a luger in good trim without problem; including from a drum.

Hi,

Opinions often vary, that's one reason I am here to learn.

Of the REAL 9mm NATO ammo I have fired (cross in circle proofed, crimped primers) it has all produced breach block slap! This will, eventually, destroy a Luger!

A lot different types of ammo will make a Luger "work". To work "right", you should be able to place 8 shots to one hole at 25 yards with no jams in at least 1,000 rounds fired.

This can be done with proper hand loads, but NOT with any modern commercial ammo that I am aware of.

Sieger

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

Opinions often vary, that's one reason I am here to learn.

Of the REAL 9mm NATO ammo I have fired (cross in circle proofed, crimped primers) it has all produced breach block slap! This will, eventually, destroy a Luger!

A lot different types of ammo will make a Luger "work". To work "right", you should be able to place 8 shots to one hole at 25 yards with no jams in at least 1,000 rounds fired.

This can be done with proper hand loads, but NOT with any modern commercial ammo that I am aware of.

Sieger

I'd still be interested in the velocity if you measured any, along with the source(country or mfg) of the real Nato ammo.

I have ammo with the Nato cross/circle which should be real, but when compared "roughly" by firing, it is not any hotter, and this is the same ammo that the mfg reports in the 1050 to 1100 fps, and yes it has the supposed Nato mark.

Perhaps only the brass is "Nato" and the loads are commercial?

You must be kidding about 8 rounds in one hole; with all due respect I do not buy it from a 4" luger, not even from a machine rest.

1000 rounds without malfunction, sure there are some pistols that would do that, but it would wear me out!

[G.T.]

Although not with a Luger, I know a rural farm fellow & family (good friends of mine) back in South Dakota that can put them in one hole all day long! Also, some years back, his son placed 5th in the Olympics in pistol shooting... collectively, they probably shoot a million round a year!!
But, it's all relative, given a big enough hole, I can do the same with some restrictions.. or conditions?
One, the hole has to be close enough...ideally, the muzzle protruding slightly thru the hole?
two, big enough, (see number one above?
three, no wind! Can't see when my eyes water...
four, group size, (what ever can be attained with one shot.... ?)

Reminds me of my fathers favorite drinking rules...
1) always cut me off at two, nawww, better make it two thirty!
2) the only two times I ever drink are alone or with somebody!

Best to all, til....lat'r....GT

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

You must be kidding about 8 rounds in one hole; with all due respect I do not buy it from a 4" luger, not even from a machine rest.

Don,




Sieger

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Don,




Sieger

No machine rest, not one hole either. But, good anyway at 25 meters, and from a 4 inch barrel, shot one handed in competition.

First target 115 gr WWB before they "improved" them.

Second and third targets, my own reloads with 124 gr FP bullets and Vectan BA9.

And for your information. I am not a fan of Fiocchi. You can get 3 well grouped shots and 2 flyers in one 5 shot string.


Edit. Wrong quote. It should have been Don Voigt's. Sorry.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by kurusu

No machine rest, not one hole either. But, good anyway at 25 meters, and from a 4 inch barrel, shot one handed in competition.

First target 115 gr WWB before they "improved" them.

Second and third targets, my own reloads with 124 gr FP bullets and Vectan BA9.

And for your information. I am not a fan of Fiocchi. You can get 3 well grouped shots and 2 flyers in one 5 shot string.


Edit. Wrong quote. It should have been Don Voigt's. Sorry.

These groups I would expect, but not "one hole" BS.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

These groups I would expect, but not "one hole" BS.

Don,

Thanks again for your caustic comment.

Maybe you suffer from low expectations.


Sieger

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Don,

Thanks again for your caustic comment.

Maybe you suffer from low expectations.


Sieger

Seiger,
No I just don't believe your one hole comment, unless as GT said, it is a "big" hole.
Kurusu "holding the X ring" is a far cry from one hole!

If you can document such a group I'll shut up.

I know what it takes to get a one hole group from a precision bench rest rifle, with a roll of paper moving behind it to to confirm that indeed, the number of rounds claimed were fired.

A Luger just will not do it, no matter how good your hand loads are.

I have "reasonable" expectations, neither "low" nor "pie in the sky".

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

No machine rest, not one hole either. But, good anyway at 25 meters, and from a 4 inch barrel, shot one handed in competition.

First target 115 gr WWB before they "improved" them.

Second and third targets, my own reloads with 124 gr FP bullets and Vectan BA9.

And for your information. I am not a fan of Fiocchi. You can get 3 well grouped shots and 2 flyers in one 5 shot string.


Edit. Wrong quote. It should have been Don Voigt's. Sorry.

Kurusu,

Hi, its been a while.

I bet with some Power Pistol powder, you could tighten those groups considerably. Try 5.1 to 5.5 grains and find your sweet spot. Also, what bullet are you using and at what C.O.A.L.?

With a bench rest position, hand held over a sand bag, I'm sure an excellent shot like you could hold the "X" ring with no problem.


Sieger

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Kurusu,

Hi, its been a while.

I bet with some Power Pistol powder, you could tighten those groups considerably. Try 5.1 to 5.5 grains and find your sweet spot. Also, what bullet are you using and at what C.O.A.L.?

With a bench rest position, hand held over a sand bag, I'm sure an excellent shot like you could hold the "X" ring with no problem.


Sieger

Hi back to you. I would have tried Power Pistol already. If it was for sale here.

COL was 1,1 with RG (Spanish brand) bullets.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

Hi back to you. I would have tried Power Pistol already. If it was for sale here.

Kurusu,

Thanks!!

By the way, what bullet are you shooting and at what O.A.L.?


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

Hi back to you. I would have tried Power Pistol already. If it was for sale here.

COL was 1,1 with RG (Spanish brand) bullets.

Kurusu,

Congratulations on that find, as they look quite a bit like the original DWM TC bullet!!

I bet a 29mm O.A.L. would be about perfect for them!

Is their weight consistent?

Do you know if they are available in the U.S.?


Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I'd still be interested in the velocity if you measured any, along with the source(country or mfg) of the real Nato ammo.

I have ammo with the Nato cross/circle which should be real, but when compared "roughly" by firing, it is not any hotter, and this is the same ammo that the mfg reports in the 1050 to 1100 fps, and yes it has the supposed Nato mark.

Perhaps only the brass is "Nato" and the loads are commercial?

You must be kidding about 8 rounds in one hole; with all due respect I do not buy it from a 4" luger, not even from a machine rest.

1000 rounds without malfunction, sure there are some pistols that would do that, but it would wear me out!

Don,

Please check the warning on the back of a Winchester brand 9mm NATO box. Here, Winchester warns the prospective shooter that Winchester NATO ammo is loaded about 10% hotter than normal Winchester 9mm Luger ammo.

Also, on the net, there are several velocity tests of various brands of 9mm ammo, both NATO and otherwise. With PPU (of all things) 9mm NATO 123 grain ammo, shot through a 5 '' barreled service M9, velocities ranged from 1,243 to 1,260. Hirtenberger 9mm NATO, again, shot through a 5'' inch barrel, was about the same.

The United States Army Technical Manuel for service ammo also lists the 9mm NATO cartridge at 1,260 fps, as shot through a service M9 pistol.

Don, do you hand load? If so, you will find that I have posted several of my successful Luger loads in the reloading section, and my accuracy results with each of them.

I hope this helps!


Sieger