byf 41 black widow

[Peter S]

In the "u" block there is a good chance that it originally came with 2 numbered aluminum bottom magazines.

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by Peter S

In the "u" block there is a good chance that it originally came with 2 numbered aluminum bottom magazines.

Peter,

I agree and would say that it "probably" did have walnut grip panels when it left the factory.

I would go further and say that the magazines with it did not even exist when this pistol was made. Note the black plastic bottoms. Note the right side up orientation of the P.08 stamps.

Mauser first started using Haenel type magazines in 1940. They had a 122 manufacturer code. Then in 1941, the code was changed to fxo and the requirement to stamp parts with P.08 came into effect. Problem: they stamped the P.08 upside down.

Then production was shifted to August Menz who built the Haenel magazines under license. They got the P.08 right. But by now we are late 1941 and the bottoms are still aluminum base.

Then production started at Manteuffel and Company, using forced labor,and the design shifts to black plastic bottoms. This is the type 6 magazine that is most commonly seen. But we are in 1942 by this time.

I really hate to get on my soap box but too many good and righteous 1941 guns were turned into Black Widows because they garnered a little more money. I fear this is one of them.

But again: JMVHO

John

[hacker51]

I hate to bust everyone's bubble here downing the originality of the two black widow mags or the Luger it's self. This luger is a vet bring back. I know everyone has there own opinion.

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by hacker51

I hate to bust everyone's bubble here downing the originality of the two black widow mags or the Luger it's self. This luger is a vet bring back. I know everyone has there own opinion.

Peter,

Further to Doug's post, collecting and this board is not about "bursting anyone's bubble". It's about providing the best possible information based on the data that is presented.

Now...with respect to the statements about FACTORY originality and the piece being a VET BRINGBACK, there is nothing mutual exclusive. Both statements can be true. Equally, it is not valid to assume that all "Black Widows" were manufacturered in the USA.

Please recognize that walnut grips were extremely fragile. Just ask any collector who has splintered one while removing it. Replacement grips were walnut or plastic. Replacing grips is one of the most common field maintenance tasks.

Following close behind in combat situations is the loss or damage to the magazines. Again replacements in this time frame were Haenel types, most with black plastic bottoms.

So the vet could have acquired the piece as it exists here without it being factory original.

But, vets like war stories. I know as I am a combat vet. While not common, it is not unknown for a vet to add an SS Badge to war trophy. Or claim, a piece was taken from a Gestapo agent or SS Colonel. Or swap out some pieces to say it was a SS weapon. I never heard of anyone who said the gun was taken from some Feldwebel even though they were the probable rank; as Field Grade Officers would never be caught dead wearing a P.08. Or most likely picked out of a stack of P.08s laying in a warehouse or courtyard. Guns in one pile and magazines, accessories in other piles.

Now, I am not saying that any of the above is the real story. But we have to rely on data and statistics. Thousands, if not 10's of thousands, of P.08s have been studied, examined and recorded. Records exist of orders issued by various levels of command affecting the production of the P.08. We also identify manufacturing changes that have occurred within Mauser. From all this data, we collectors infer things.

Like; we know an order was issued at a date but implementation was phased in. Then we look at serial numbers in a stream of production to identify about when changes occurred. Then we develop patterns; e.g. we see two P.08s with the same characteristics and then observe a serial number between them. If it has the same characteristics, we say that it is "probably" original. If it displays differing characteristics then we begin to suspect a subsequent action created the piece and that it did not leave the factory that way. Equally, on higher level we can develop generalities and probabilities based on statistics.

Just wanted you to know that we collectors do not take any joy in bursting bubbles. We love guns and collecting. But collecting is all about knowing what you are collecting. And...unfortunately collecting costs money and the value of a piece is significantly affected by its degree of originality. So..we pay a lot a attention to the adjectives used in describing a particular piece.

Apologies for using so many words.

Hope this helps.

John