Unrelieved sear bar ??

simoon · 11-09-2003, 07:30 PM

Can someone help me out and explain the significance of this?

I was cruising ads and I don'y know what an "Unrelieved sear bar" is.

Thanks

Heinz · 11-09-2003, 08:42 PM

The original military P08 sear bar was cut so that when the pistol was on safe it was not possible to fully work the toggle. This meant if you loaded fresh magazine into an empty pistol, you could not chamber a round unless you took the safety off. The relieved sear was introduced in 1916 production and allowed some distance between the sear cut and the safety "finger." This rather useful modification was retrofitted to many earlier production P08s.

Perhaps someone can post photos off a relieved and unrelieved sear bar for you. Mine all have relieved sears.

regards, heinz

Dwight Gruber · 11-09-2003, 09:48 PM

In the photo below, the upper image (1915 DWM) has an unrelieved sear bar, the lower (1917 Navy) has been relieved. The white arrow points out the position of the sear bar bevel on both guns.

As you can see, the bevel on the 1915 is right up against the safety bar, which prohibits the upper from moving backwards and so the action cannot be opened with the safety on.

The bevel on the Navy is relieved--cut back (actually, forward) far enough to allow the receiver to move to its full rearward position without intersecting the safety bar.

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 11-09-2003, 10:22 PM

A point of clarification. Even if a Luger has a relieved sear bar, it is not possible to chamber a round in an empty, uncocked gun by inserting a fresh magazine and attempting to work the toggle. With the safety on, the toggle still will not retract far enough to chamber a round or **** the firing pin.

The purpose of relieving the sear bar was to permit a loaded weapon to be cleared with the safety on.

simoon · 11-10-2003, 05:33 PM

I learn something new evertime I come here!
Thanks guys.

So other than the inferior safety aspect, are there other pitfalls to a Luger with an unreleived sear bar from a collecting standpoint?

Heinz · 11-10-2003, 09:11 PM

Ron, both my 1915 and 1918 with relieved sear bars will indeed chamber a round while on safe. Jan Still in Imperial Lugers p 24 states "According to George Luger's German Patent DRP 312919 dated april 1,1916, a relieved sear bar would allow the chamber to be loaded with the firing pin cocked and the safety on." I hope that is more clear in the original German than it is in the English. Is your experience that lugers you have will not chamber a round while on safe? It may have to do with minor differences in the relief distance. The 1918 chambers easily, the 1915 feels like it is right against the safety but it does chamber. However, I only have a sample of two.

kind regards,
heinz

Dwight Gruber · 11-10-2003, 10:26 PM

Dwight Gruber · 11-10-2003, 10:28 PM

Heinz, you missed part of it--

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ron Wood:
Even if a Luger has a relieved sear bar, it is not possible to chamber a round in an empty, uncocked gun...<hr /></blockquote>If the gun is decocked and the safety is on, the firing pin sear cannot ride back past the sear bar because it cannot push the bar out of the way. If it is cocked, it is -already- back past the sear bar.

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 11-10-2003, 10:32 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> a relieved sear bar would allow the chamber to be loaded with the firing pin cocked and the safety on <hr /></blockquote>The quote is the significant difference between what I posted and your observation. If you review my post, I indicated that you cannot chamber a round in a Luger with an unrelieved sear bar if it is not already cocked . If it is uncocked, i.e. the firing pin is not in the fire position, you can't cycle the action with the safety on.

ADDED:
Oops, Dwight beat me to the punch.

Heinz · 11-11-2003, 07:41 AM

Dwight and Ron, Of course you are right, the P08 will not chamber if decocked and safed. I would submit that decocking a luger is a sensible collectors avocation but may not have been the standard in military use. Does any one have a translation of the Imperial Army instructions for use? Th only translation I have is from Datig and is for a grip safety. It does not mention decockng but may be incomplete.

When a Luger goes empty from firing it is cocked. You can remove the magazine, drop the toggle and later engage the safety insert a charged magazine and reload with a relieved sear. You can also pull the clip on a loaded pistol, engage the safety and clear a chambered round as Ron notes.

A decocked Luger with the safety is locked up, having approximately a 1/4 inch of movement in the toggle, that has nothing to do with the relief on the sear bar, it is bound up by the sear bar tring to pivot outward as the bolt cocks and thus presses against the inside surface of the safety. A very nice feature in storage. I doubt it is an avantage in combat however. I have often wondered if the hold open was added to the military Lugers to prevent the occurance of firing the last shot, pulling the trigger and decocking the pistol, applying the safety and having everything locked up until you remember to remove the safety. With the holdhopen the tendency would be to remove the mag, release the toggle, and have the pistol remain cocked.

I don't disagree with your point but I do believe the purpose of the relieved sear is to "allow the chamber to be loaded" with a cocked gun on safe.

11-09-2003, 07:30 PM	#1
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Unrelieved sear bar ?? Can someone help me out and explain the significance of this? I was cruising ads and I don'y know what an "Unrelieved sear bar" is. Thanks __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

11-09-2003, 10:22 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	A point of clarification. Even if a Luger has a relieved sear bar, it is not possible to chamber a round in an empty, uncocked gun by inserting a fresh magazine and attempting to work the toggle. With the safety on, the toggle still will not retract far enough to chamber a round or **** the firing pin. The purpose of relieving the sear bar was to permit a loaded weapon to be cleared with the safety on. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-10-2003, 05:33 PM	#5
simoon User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I learn something new evertime I come here! Thanks guys. So other than the inferior safety aspect, are there other pitfalls to a Luger with an unreleived sear bar from a collecting standpoint? __________________ Good judgement comes from experience... experience comes from bad judgement.

11-10-2003, 10:28 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Heinz, you missed part of it-- </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Ron Wood: <strong>Even if a Luger has a relieved sear bar, it is not possible to chamber a round in an empty, uncocked gun...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">If the gun is decocked and the safety is on, the firing pin sear cannot ride back past the sear bar because it cannot push the bar out of the way. If it is cocked, it is -already- back past the sear bar. --Dwight

11-10-2003, 10:32 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> a relieved sear bar would allow the chamber to be loaded with the firing pin cocked and the safety on </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The quote is the significant difference between what I posted and your observation. If you review my post, I indicated that you cannot chamber a round in a Luger with an unrelieved sear bar if it is not already cocked . If it is uncocked, i.e. the firing pin is not in the fire position, you can't cycle the action with the safety on. ADDED: Oops, Dwight beat me to the punch. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-09-2003, 08:42 PM	#2
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	The original military P08 sear bar was cut so that when the pistol was on safe it was not possible to fully work the toggle. This meant if you loaded fresh magazine into an empty pistol, you could not chamber a round unless you took the safety off. The relieved sear was introduced in 1916 production and allowed some distance between the sear cut and the safety "finger." This rather useful modification was retrofitted to many earlier production P08s. Perhaps someone can post photos off a relieved and unrelieved sear bar for you. Mine all have relieved sears. regards, heinz

11-09-2003, 09:48 PM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	In the photo below, the upper image (1915 DWM) has an unrelieved sear bar, the lower (1917 Navy) has been relieved. The white arrow points out the position of the sear bar bevel on both guns. As you can see, the bevel on the 1915 is right up against the safety bar, which prohibits the upper from moving backwards and so the action cannot be opened with the safety on. The bevel on the Navy is relieved--cut back (actually, forward) far enough to allow the receiver to move to its full rearward position without intersecting the safety bar. --Dwight

11-10-2003, 09:11 PM	#6
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	Ron, both my 1915 and 1918 with relieved sear bars will indeed chamber a round while on safe. Jan Still in Imperial Lugers p 24 states "According to George Luger's German Patent DRP 312919 dated april 1,1916, a relieved sear bar would allow the chamber to be loaded with the firing pin cocked and the safety on." I hope that is more clear in the original German than it is in the English. Is your experience that lugers you have will not chamber a round while on safe? It may have to do with minor differences in the relief distance. The 1918 chambers easily, the 1915 feels like it is right against the safety but it does chamber. However, I only have a sample of two. kind regards, heinz

11-10-2003, 10:26 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts

11-11-2003, 07:41 AM	#10
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	Dwight and Ron, Of course you are right, the P08 will not chamber if decocked and safed. I would submit that decocking a luger is a sensible collectors avocation but may not have been the standard in military use. Does any one have a translation of the Imperial Army instructions for use? Th only translation I have is from Datig and is for a grip safety. It does not mention decockng but may be incomplete. When a Luger goes empty from firing it is cocked. You can remove the magazine, drop the toggle and later engage the safety insert a charged magazine and reload with a relieved sear. You can also pull the clip on a loaded pistol, engage the safety and clear a chambered round as Ron notes. A decocked Luger with the safety is locked up, having approximately a 1/4 inch of movement in the toggle, that has nothing to do with the relief on the sear bar, it is bound up by the sear bar tring to pivot outward as the bolt cocks and thus presses against the inside surface of the safety. A very nice feature in storage. I doubt it is an avantage in combat however. I have often wondered if the hold open was added to the military Lugers to prevent the occurance of firing the last shot, pulling the trigger and decocking the pistol, applying the safety and having everything locked up until you remember to remove the safety. With the holdhopen the tendency would be to remove the mag, release the toggle, and have the pistol remain cocked. I don't disagree with your point but I do believe the purpose of the relieved sear is to "allow the chamber to be loaded" with a cocked gun on safe.

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