Soon to be owner of a 1916 DWM Luger P08 "shooter"

[spacecoast]

Hello Frederik, and congrats on your Luger. Hopefully you can find an aftermarket magazine or two soon and stop using your wood-bottom magazine, which may crack and fail (and be ruined). This is an example of what you want to buy, or its European equivalent.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/137...-8-round-steel

I strongly advise you NOT to look for heavier bullets. They may go a bit slower but they will put MORE stress on your gun. You seem to be doing well with 123 gr. bullets, so I would stay in that 115 to 124 gr. range.

[Big Fre]

Thanks spacecoast, going to check some militairia events, might find something there with a bit of luck,

I'm doubting about keep using the 123/124gr bullets, as the member of my club I spoke with blew up his toggle, and he had a newer model in perfect condition, might look for the brand of ammo that had the 124gr with the lowest velocity, that might help a little, apparentley Lapua sells a type 9mm with a 320m/s velocity which is supposed to be perfect, but he talked of a price of 25€ for a box of 50 bullets, that's very expensive, in that case I would have to decide to shoot it less, which I would find a shame, because I really like shooting it, thanks for the tips

[mrerick]

Hi Frederick,

I had mentioned issues with high power ammo in my earlier post to you.

Best ammo is a 115gn full metal jacket bullet loaded to standard velocity. Here we have Winchester White Box ammo. You have a variety of suppliers providing this load.

You may find the FAQ on our site useful.

Marc

[Big Fre]

Hey, mrerick, yep, you and some others told me to use the normal bullets, but when someone in the club with many many years of shooting experience (the man was at least 80 years old) tells me that he blew out the toggle of his Luger by using normal present day ammo, then doubt off course steps in, they recommended 124gr because it has a smaller charge and lower velocity, so I looked around, think I'm going to take both advices to heart, yours and from the clubmember, and not take a bullet with heavier head or extra low charge, but take stock ammo with the lowest velocity I can find, looked it op, and the Magtech 124gr have a velocity of only 1109ft/sec, which is close to the 1050ft/sec the old man recommended, the Fiochis I'm using now are 1180ft/sec, so that's on the high side, Winchester white box sits in between both, so choise made, going to buy Magtech 9mm 124gr for the P08, and hope for the best, thanks for all the advice!

[rhuff]

I have to question if the "old man's Luger" had a problem other than the ammo. There are many, many folks on this forum and others that have fired thousands upon thousands of std. velocity 115/124gr FMJ ammo with ZERO problems, myself included. The difference in velocity of 1050 FPS and 1105 FPS ammo is totally insignificant, and can likely be found in the SAME box of inexpensive range ammo.

You certainly can do as you wish, but there is an awful lot of Luger knowledge on this forum that I will put up against the one person at your club. your choice.

Did you break down the Luger for a good cleaning and lube before you took it to the range?? I hope so, as they operate the best when clean and lubed.

[Big Fre]

Like I said, I'm not going to discard the advices of members here on the forum just for the one person, I must note that the old man told me he shot his Luger for 9000 rounds in the first year untill it broke, so that's also a hell of a lot of shooting in a small period of time, and like you said, we can never know if there might have been another issue with the gun which caused the breaking, that's why I'm going to keep shooting standard ammo, but just going to use magtech in stead of Fiochi because Magtech is a bit lower on power, shot it today with 20 Magtech's 124gr and it shot less high then with Fiochi, and it didn't have hang-up's with the Fiochi I had every 10 round that a bullet got stuck between the toggle, didn't have that problem with the Magtech, so think I took the best of both worlds, you guys telling me to use standard ammo and the old man telling me to use special ammo with a bit lower velocity ammo, now I'll use standard ammo but the brand with the lowest velocity out of the bunch, about the cleaning, I bought it cleaned and ready from the gun store, I'll take it apart maybe next week te look at the internals, shot rather nice these 2 days, so no complaints there

[DonVoigt]

Just beware of shooting "Nato" spec ammo, it is about 20% hotter and should not be used.

Who knows why a pistol failed after 9,000 rounds or 10 rounds? Could be lots of reasons, some ammo related some just a bad part.

I don't understand how the entire toggle could blow back or out of a luger, it just does not work that way!

Someone posted earlier that the toggle is "inherently weak"; that just is not so- it is designed and has worked for millions or maybe billions of rounds in its design lifetime. Nothing weak about the design or its execution. JMHO.

[Big Fre]

Certainly going to watch out to avoid NATO spec ammo,

It surprised me too that this could happen but 2 instructors and the owner of the club had seen the gun after it broke, that's why they where trying to warn me,

The design has workes very good indeed, but in the 2 wars it was in the ammo was mostly lower powered, certainly with the shortage of supplies etc.,

But no problem, standard ammo but just not the highest velocity types, therefore the magtech, they did seem to work better then the Fiochi's

[RShaw]

Hi Big Fre,
Wonderful to hear about the positive start with your new buy!
I have been doing some asking around for ammo for my 1918 P08 shooter- here's the result:

original 9mm Luger round = 124gr bullet (fmj) at 1050fps from a 4" barrel.
original 9mm P ammunition, as tested in the USA in 1903 to be:
Light: 8gm/124gr bullet + .35gm/5.4gr powder = 315 mps/1033 fps from 100mm barrel
Heavy: 8gm/124gr bullet + .38gm/5.9gr powder= 334 mps/1095 fps from 100mm barrel.
before WW1, changed to 115gr fmj at 1150fps from a 4" barrel.
Winchester White Box 115 gr.
145 grain subsonic 9mm is reliable (handloaded)
American Eagle 124gr fmj works!
standard 9mm ammo is fine - standard commercial ammunition is OK
DO NOT USE +P, of course. No 147's or 150's either. No NATO

I have not shot mine yet... as I still have to wait until August before I can put it on my permit and bring it home- nice to hear about your experience.

Is the ammo you used Fiocchi 124 gr? Hard to read the numbers on the photo. Thanks!

I have Subsonic 150 gr Luger 9 mm ammo, but have only used that in my P38 ac43 with good results so far. I have not tried this ammo in a P08- although our local LGS did recommend this ammo for both the P08 and P38.

Hope this listing helps.

[Big Fre]

Hey Rshaw,

Yes, always interesting to know extra facts, I shot the 123gr Fiochi, they don't make 124gr,

Must say with the Fiochi more trouble with cycling the bullets, the Magtech 124gr seemed to work better, so I'm going to keep using those, they speeded up the process for getting the gun licences here in Belgium, took me 6,5 weeks to get it

[RShaw]

Good to know, Fiocchi versus Magtech thank you.
We used to live in Belgium- (Waterloo and Overijsse)- always liked the food

Yes the regulations can be "an exercise in patience" - I know what you mean about the wait.
Your listing of guns is impressive... the only way we can have more than 5 pieces is to have a collector's license- am looking into that now.

Very nice to hear you are happy with your "new" P08

[RShaw]

Re. your earlier comment on interesting facts... there is a wealth of information in the FAQ's as well as in several excellent books.
I have just bought John Walter's "The Luger" as well as the new "The Parabellum is Back 1945 - 2000"
Both are fascinating reading.
YouTube "Tale of the Gun" series is great too....

Anyway, enjoy your "new" P08!

[Big Fre]

Thanks for the info,

Went to try some new ammo I bought for testing if compatible with the Luger, because 147 and 150gr was 100% no go I found that Geco had an in between at 139gr, thought I would try it just for the reason of wanting to have the facts about it beeing not good for the Luger, and must say to all the people who replied, you guys where right, and I did believe you, but just wanted to be sure, if you din't try it you can never know if it is good or not, so shot the Geco 139gr, after the 4th shot the 5th wouldn't cycle, did a quick field strip at the range and found that the bullet didn't enter the chamber fully anymore, came home and opened her up, took the toggle out and came to see there was a little rim inside the chambre, tapped it out, and the pictures show what happened

The full metal jacket broke open and got stuck in the barrel/chambre, tapped it out, no harm done to the gun, cleaned it out, perfectly fine, luckely,

So there you go, proof that heavier bullets are certainly not the way to go,

Everyone thanks for all the advice, Magtech 124gr works perfect, Fiochi 123gr = no good, Geco 139gr = very bad

[RShaw]

Hi Big Fre,
I'm still trying to understand exactly what happened here.
You say "the full metal jacket broke open and got stuck in the barrel/chambre."
This sounds like a defective round rather than ammo which is not suited to the gun.
But I'm certainly not encouraging use of the Geco 139gr ammo at all!!

You are VERY fortunate that the 4th bullet did not get stuck farther down the barrel! In that case, it is likely that you would have fired the next round, (since it would have chambered properly), and then you would have exploded your barrel and likely the slide as well. I have heard these referred to as "Squib loads" resulting from too lttle, or even no charge in the casing at all, but only the primer. Did you hear a faint "pop" rather than a proper "BANG" when you fired that last 4th round?

Scary............. Good thing that you (and your gun) are all right.

There are good YouTube educational videos about this- here's some links:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC7H_8n8HbU&t=317s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1MHKRBPPAY

Here's what can happen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU4-v433Of0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exGUPC2aP4M

[Big Fre]

All 4 shots where normal bangs, just the 5th didn't chambre, I know I was lucky, could have been pretty bad, it was just the "shell" that was stuck, rest of the bullet shot out, it was the plating of the head that got stuck

[RShaw]

Ahh OK,
I have never heard of such a thing.
.... Until now. Must be a term for that somewhere.

Anyway.... we're all learning

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by RShaw

Ahh OK,
I have never heard of such a thing.
.... Until now. Must be a term for that somewhere.

Anyway.... we're all learning

It is called a "failure"!

"Bullet core separated" from jacket is more technical.

Such separations happens to a very low % of bullets, and would likely be the primary cause for bulged barrels, JMHO. It was more prevalent in the earlier days of jacketed bullets, when mfg. techniques were not as good.

Happened pretty frequently when guys snipped or cut the nose of the bullet to simulate a "hollow point" ; especially with an open base bullet- the core would just "shoot" out.

A separated case is more common, but both do happen!

[kurusu]

Just my personal opinion:

There two things. The plague, and Fiocchi ammo.

They are both to be avoided.

Again, that's just my personal opinion. YMMV.

[DaveL]

Of the 10s of thousands of rounds I've shot over my 61 years of shooting and reloading I have never seen a bullet come apart like yours did. All I can say is WOW!!! And WOW you were sure lucky the next round didn't chamber. I think I will certainly in the future, avoid Geco ammo like the plague. The only explanation I can think of is that particular bullet didn't get any lead put in and was nothing but the jacket. WOW again!

[RShaw]

Why Fiocchi?? I've only heard positive things from many about this ammo.