Railroad/police 1908?

MG · 08-11-2003, 04:19 AM

Hello
I did not know were to put this, has anyone seen grips like this before?

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=10929355

Thank you

PANZERSOLDAT · 08-11-2003, 06:07 AM

I have only seen one Railway Police dress dagger, I have never seen any firearm specifically marked as issued to them. I would require a lot of documentation to accept this, as for now, it falls into the same category as SS lugers...to me anyway.

John Sabato · 08-11-2003, 03:16 PM

TAC,

You crack me up!

Navy · 08-11-2003, 06:11 PM

All,
Actually there was a Reichsbahn Polezi and they were responsible for security of the Reichsbahn property and equipment. These would have been the guys checking the papers on the train in The Great Escape. The authenticity of this piece is a curious question; I have seen RBD marked Walthers, but never a P-08. The Walthers had the grip strap marked, IIRC.
Tom A.

PANZERSOLDAT · 08-11-2003, 07:40 PM

I would find a 7.65 firearm more plausible as issue to the Reichsbahn Police. Most of the 9mm sidearms went to military police and soldiers who would have been in combat formations.What next...a Railway Plice marked K98 with RBD runes and cartouche with specially marked bayonet of course. The repro market will have to gear up now to copy these grips. Better stock up on party leader and black widow grips before they cut back production to keep up with the newest fad.

Jim Keenan · 08-11-2003, 07:43 PM

IIRC = if I recall correctly.

Yes, there was a German railway police agency (and still is, but without the "Reich" and the swastikas). What guns they carried, I don't know.

Jim

Navy · 08-12-2003, 06:24 PM

All,

Yes there K98s that are RB marked as well as bayonets. Not many but they show up from time to time. FWIW, Browning 1910/22s show up very frequently marked Bahnpolezi U.S. Zone.

Now if you want to get into some really obscure markings, how about SA Maritime Gruppe marked P-08. It was a DWM 1917, well worn and so marked on the grip strap. Seen at MAX 3 years ago and observed by qat least 3 forum members...
Tom A.

Jim Keenan · 08-12-2003, 09:21 PM

Under the Versailles treaty, Germany was allowed a postal protection service, to guard the mail. Using this authority, Mauser Standard Modell (commercial) rifles were bought for the Deutsches Reichspost (DRP). Some were marked "DRP", but most were marked "DR".

The Germans used the loophole to issue these "postal" rifles to the Deutsches Reichsbahn, the Railway police, and also to the Reichswehr itself. The use of a marking that could be read in several ways was deliberate, to fool any curious Allied visitor to Mauser. The marking was stamped into the stock.

But there is no record of a DR or DRP marking such as appears on the Luger in question, and I am inclined to be highly suspicious unless some valid documentation is produced.

BTW, I have no doubt that if this one sells for big bucks, we will see a "cache of these rare Lugers" being found in some out of the way part of Germany like, maybe, California.

Jim

John F. · 08-12-2003, 11:12 PM

Always remember, "Schwarzfahr kommt mehr teuer als der Fahrpreis!!" (Riding without a ticket costs more than the ticket!)

MauserLugers · 08-13-2003, 12:08 AM

I saw one of these about 3 years ago at the Kansas City show. As I recall it also had a holster marked in the same way. Wanted a lot of money for it then and I just don't seem to remember what it was but for some reason seem to think it was marked 1917, but just guessing. It did have some kind of markings on the grips and holster and it was being advertised as a railroad Luger. Supposedly it had been in a collection for the last 10 years and was being resold. Ralph Shattuck had it and could probably tell you more about it if he remembers it. -- Bill

Ron Wood · 08-13-2003, 12:23 AM

This is the same Luger that Ralph had at the Kansas City show. Other than the grips and very nice condition, it was an otherwise unremarkable 1908. It is BUG proofed but there are no other unusual markings on the gun.

Lugerdoc · 08-13-2003, 09:33 AM

I once owed a 1916 Erfurt with a similar "winged wheel" branded into the matching left grip. This was 30 years ago, so if we can assume that at least some of these are original, it would appear that the RB Police used whatever variation came their way and branded it. This was during the Weimar period when strange things happened, but I wouldn't consider it any stranger or rarer than the "EWB" branded Freicorp guns. TH

Navy · 08-13-2003, 05:35 PM

I agree with Tom H. The gun is probably righteous but should not command a significant premium.
Tom A

Pete Ebbink · 08-13-2003, 08:12 PM

Guys,

Okay...maybe I am not the brightest bulb along the string...

But how can the same gun (serial # 41492) be offered for sale both on WOL's List # 243 for $ 4500 (item # 957, stock # 6139) and also be offered by the folks at Phoenix Investment Arms for $ 6500 asking...

Why would someone pay $ 2000 more...???

Am I missing something here...?

Saw the same thing for that 9 mm 1902 carbine...$ 12000 versus $ 16500...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 08-13-2003, 10:53 PM

If you check WOL you will find that this gun has been sold. Ralph sold it to this guy and evidently he is trying to turn a quick $2000 on it. Apparently he buys from Ralph and then relists on his site with a significant markup. I would guess that he doesn't expect that a bunch of Luger nuts will track this sort of thing.

Pete Ebbink · 08-13-2003, 11:58 PM

Thanks, Ron...

I was thinking both were selling on a consignment basis for the same owner...WOL being less expensive due to sales volume...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Lugerdoc · 08-14-2003, 08:27 AM

Ron, Your comments remind me of a shop owner in Northern Calif. who used to say "We lose money on every sales, but make it up in volume" and "We cheat the seller, and pass the savings on to you". Unfortunately, he wasn't kidding. He went bankrupt and cost me $1000 in lost consignment merchandise. TH

ViggoG · 08-15-2003, 12:44 AM

"E-Steemed Tac",

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Motto's 'Ein Wasche mit Enthusiasmus!' and 'Spuellen mit Erfolg aus!

['awash with enthusiasm' and 'flushed with success'] <hr /></blockquote><img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
Did I understand You to say this was a "Quote from "The German Application" for "Johnnie Crappers English Patent",

In the section describing the function of the "Original Device"?
ViggoG <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

08-11-2003, 04:19 AM	#1
MG User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 93 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Railroad/police 1908? Hello I did not know were to put this, has anyone seen grips like this before? http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=10929355 Thank you __________________ MG "Si vis pacem, para bellum" 'If you want peace,prepare for war'

08-11-2003, 03:16 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	TAC, You crack me up! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-12-2003, 11:12 PM	#9
John F. User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Always remember, "Schwarzfahr kommt mehr teuer als der Fahrpreis!!" (Riding without a ticket costs more than the ticket!) __________________ John

08-13-2003, 12:23 AM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	This is the same Luger that Ralph had at the Kansas City show. Other than the grips and very nice condition, it was an otherwise unremarkable 1908. It is BUG proofed but there are no other unusual markings on the gun. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-13-2003, 09:33 AM	#12
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	I once owed a 1916 Erfurt with a similar "winged wheel" branded into the matching left grip. This was 30 years ago, so if we can assume that at least some of these are original, it would appear that the RB Police used whatever variation came their way and branded it. This was during the Weimar period when strange things happened, but I wouldn't consider it any stranger or rarer than the "EWB" branded Freicorp guns. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-11-2003, 06:07 AM	#2
PANZERSOLDAT User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: CLARKSVILLE, TN Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have only seen one Railway Police dress dagger, I have never seen any firearm specifically marked as issued to them. I would require a lot of documentation to accept this, as for now, it falls into the same category as SS lugers...to me anyway.

08-11-2003, 06:11 PM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, Actually there was a Reichsbahn Polezi and they were responsible for security of the Reichsbahn property and equipment. These would have been the guys checking the papers on the train in The Great Escape. The authenticity of this piece is a curious question; I have seen RBD marked Walthers, but never a P-08. The Walthers had the grip strap marked, IIRC. Tom A.

08-11-2003, 07:40 PM	#5
PANZERSOLDAT User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: CLARKSVILLE, TN Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I would find a 7.65 firearm more plausible as issue to the Reichsbahn Police. Most of the 9mm sidearms went to military police and soldiers who would have been in combat formations.What next...a Railway Plice marked K98 with RBD runes and cartouche with specially marked bayonet of course. The repro market will have to gear up now to copy these grips. Better stock up on party leader and black widow grips before they cut back production to keep up with the newest fad.

08-11-2003, 07:43 PM	#6
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	IIRC = if I recall correctly. Yes, there was a German railway police agency (and still is, but without the "Reich" and the swastikas). What guns they carried, I don't know. Jim

08-12-2003, 06:24 PM	#7
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, Yes there K98s that are RB marked as well as bayonets. Not many but they show up from time to time. FWIW, Browning 1910/22s show up very frequently marked Bahnpolezi U.S. Zone. Now if you want to get into some really obscure markings, how about SA Maritime Gruppe marked P-08. It was a DWM 1917, well worn and so marked on the grip strap. Seen at MAX 3 years ago and observed by qat least 3 forum members... Tom A.

08-12-2003, 09:21 PM	#8
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Under the Versailles treaty, Germany was allowed a postal protection service, to guard the mail. Using this authority, Mauser Standard Modell (commercial) rifles were bought for the Deutsches Reichspost (DRP). Some were marked "DRP", but most were marked "DR". The Germans used the loophole to issue these "postal" rifles to the Deutsches Reichsbahn, the Railway police, and also to the Reichswehr itself. The use of a marking that could be read in several ways was deliberate, to fool any curious Allied visitor to Mauser. The marking was stamped into the stock. But there is no record of a DR or DRP marking such as appears on the Luger in question, and I am inclined to be highly suspicious unless some valid documentation is produced. BTW, I have no doubt that if this one sells for big bucks, we will see a "cache of these rare Lugers" being found in some out of the way part of Germany like, maybe, California. Jim

08-13-2003, 12:08 AM	#10
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	I saw one of these about 3 years ago at the Kansas City show. As I recall it also had a holster marked in the same way. Wanted a lot of money for it then and I just don't seem to remember what it was but for some reason seem to think it was marked 1917, but just guessing. It did have some kind of markings on the grips and holster and it was being advertised as a railroad Luger. Supposedly it had been in a collection for the last 10 years and was being resold. Ralph Shattuck had it and could probably tell you more about it if he remembers it. -- Bill

08-13-2003, 05:35 PM	#13
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I agree with Tom H. The gun is probably righteous but should not command a significant premium. Tom A

08-13-2003, 08:12 PM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Guys, Okay...maybe I am not the brightest bulb along the string... But how can the same gun (serial # 41492) be offered for sale both on WOL's List # 243 for $ 4500 (item # 957, stock # 6139) and also be offered by the folks at Phoenix Investment Arms for $ 6500 asking... Why would someone pay $ 2000 more...??? Am I missing something here...? Saw the same thing for that 9 mm 1902 carbine...$ 12000 versus $ 16500... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-13-2003, 10:53 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,256 Times in 1,724 Posts	If you check WOL you will find that this gun has been sold. Ralph sold it to this guy and evidently he is trying to turn a quick $2000 on it. Apparently he buys from Ralph and then relists on his site with a significant markup. I would guess that he doesn't expect that a bunch of Luger nuts will track this sort of thing. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-13-2003, 11:58 PM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks, Ron... I was thinking both were selling on a consignment basis for the same owner...WOL being less expensive due to sales volume... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-14-2003, 08:27 AM	#17
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Ron, Your comments remind me of a shop owner in Northern Calif. who used to say "We lose money on every sales, but make it up in volume" and "We cheat the seller, and pass the savings on to you". Unfortunately, he wasn't kidding. He went bankrupt and cost me $1000 in lost consignment merchandise. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-15-2003, 12:44 AM	#18
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	"E-Steemed Tac", </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> Motto's 'Ein Wasche mit Enthusiasmus!' and 'Spuellen mit Erfolg aus! ['awash with enthusiasm' and 'flushed with success'] </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> Did I understand You to say this was a "Quote from "The German Application" for "Johnnie Crappers English Patent", In the section describing the function of the "Original Device"? ViggoG <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

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