Why is Glock so Hot????

[Jack Lawman]

Inevitably, most “Glock” threads morph into “Cops and Glocks” threads. The following post is only for those readers who have not galvanized their opinion of the Glock. I would hate to be accused of trying to win hearts and minds.

The Glock is the choice of most LE agencies because it is a neat fit with the average skill level of the average police officer. Of approximately 883,600 (2008) officers in the US, there are some really bad ones, some really good ones, and a lot of average ones. This discussion centers around the vast majority of “average” officers.

1. The Glock has three passive safeties: Trigger, firing pin, and drop. In the heat of a gunfight, many officers carrying firearms with a manual safety will draw on a threat, mash on a locked trigger, realize they need to flip off the safety, flip off the safety, then fire. This 1 – 2 second delay has cost lives. A Glock is drawn and fired… period. Is it a training issue? Certainly. Would it be “safer” if all police carried manual safety arms and trained the safety flip into their subconscious? Absolutely. That said, I have yet to see any body of citizenry clamor to pay higher taxes for better guns and triple range, ammo, and manpower expenses. Even so, the bad cops will carry their pistols with the safety off to “get the edge.”

2. I submit that 99.9% of all Glock accidental discharges are caused by user error. The trigger is pulled on a loaded chamber, period. The trigger must be pulled on a Glock in order to disassemble. It is drilled over and over to never pull the trigger on a loaded firearm if you don’t intend to shoot. People forget, sometimes with fatal consequences. The only true accidental discharge of a Glock (as opposed to negligent discharge) I have heard of is an officer was holstering his Glock at the range and a small plastic ball dangling from the drawstring of his raid jacket found its way inside the trigger guard of his pistol. When he holstered, the object depressed the trigger safety and the pistol discharged (minor injury IIRC).

3. The majority of gunfights take place between contact distance and 7 yards. Urban police gunfights usually take place between 0 and 10 feet. At these distances, I would gladly go up against any supertuned .45 with a working 9mm Bryco, Jennings, Kel-Tec, etc IF I get a 1 second headstart on the draw. At these distances, the inherent accuracy of the firearm just isn’t an issue. Though not as accurate as a match pistol, the Glock is as accurate as most any other service pistol.

Think of police officers as home improvement contractors. Some can do excellent work, but they make a mess when they paint. Or car mechanics, some can fix your car very well, but they have trouble with the electronics. Some otherwise EXCELLENT officers just aren’t gun guys. It’s as simple as that. Problem is that when you use your gun properly, you’re a hero. When you mess up, you’re a zero. Both of these guys make the paper. The guy who doesn’t make the paper is the guy who carries his gun for 20+ years and is skillful enough to never have an incident. That’s most of us.

Jack
(Never in a gunfight)

[Olle]

I don't carry a gun at work like you do and I'm definitely not as good at handling and shooting guns as I would like to be, but I would still like to comment on your post:

Originally Posted by Jack Lawman

1. The Glock has three passive safeties: Trigger, firing pin, and drop. In the heat of a gunfight, many officers carrying firearms with a manual safety will draw on a threat, mash on a locked trigger, realize they need to flip off the safety, flip off the safety, then fire. This 1 – 2 second delay has cost lives. A Glock is drawn and fired… period. Is it a training issue? Certainly. Would it be “safer” if all police carried manual safety arms and trained the safety flip into their subconscious? Absolutely. That saud, I have yet to see any body of citizenry clamor to pay higher taxes for better guns and triple range, ammo, and manpower expenses. Even so, the bad cops will carry their pistols with the safety off to “get the edge.”

What you're comparing here is a Glock with a loaded chamber and a SA/DA pistol with loaded chamber and the safety on, and I don't think this is a fair comparison. If you look at the actual condition of the weapon, you should compare with a SA/DA with a loaded chamber, safety off and the hammer lowered. In this scenario I'd say that the SA/DA has an edge safetywise, as the trigger pull is heavier than on a Glock in the same condition (much like a revolver). Also, it can be deployed just as quickly as the Glock, without fumbling for the safety.

Originally Posted by Jack Lawman

2. I submit that 99.9% of all Glock accidental discharges are caused by user error. The trigger is pulled on a loaded chamber, period. The trigger must be pulled on a Glock in order to disassemble. It is drilled over and over to never pull the trigger on a loaded firearm if you don’t intend to shoot. People forget, sometimes with fatal consequences. The only true accidental discharge of a Glock (as opposed to negligent discharge) I have heard of is an officer was holstering his Glock at the range and a small plastic ball dangling from the drawstring of his raid jacket found its way inside the trigger guard of his pistol. When he holstered, the object depressed the trigger safety and the pistol discharged (minor injury IIRC).

I agree that the vast majority of accidents are due to operator error, and I'd also say that it's way easier to make a mistake with the Glock. The only thing that indicates that the gun is ready to fire is the position of the trigger, and it's easy to make a mistake if you don't know what you're looking at. It is definitely a training and awareness issue, but it's still easier to make a mistake with a Glock than with a gun that has more visible "warning features". This is my major gripe with "the safest gun in the world": How can the average Joe Blow tell the difference between an unloaded gun, and one that is ready to fire? I'd say that most people can't, unless they are well trained on Glocks in particular. The sad truth is that the majority of private gun owners don't take the time to learn all the particulars of their guns, and that's why many accidents happen. A first time gun owner lured into buying a Glock is an accident waiting to happen.

Originally Posted by Jack Lawman

3. The majority of gunfights take place between contact distance and 7 yards. Urban police gunfights usually take place between 0 and 10 feet. At these distances, I would gladly go up against any supertuned .45 with a working 9mm Bryco, Jennings, Kel-Tec, etc IF I get a 1 second headstart on the draw. At these distances, the inherent accuracy of the firearm just isn’t an issue. Though not as accurate as a match pistol, the Glock is as accurate as most any other service pistol.

I agree 100%. In this scenario, you don't need a bullseye pistol, you need one that goes bang every time you pull the trigger.

[Jack Lawman]

Originally Posted by Olle

What you're comparing here is a Glock with a loaded chamber and a SA/DA pistol with loaded chamber and the safety on, and I don't think this is a fair comparison.

Not comparing Glock's "safeaction" to either double action (DA) or single action (SA). It's a hybrid. It's like a SA because each and every trigger pull is the same (first to last). It's like a DA because although the striker is "preloaded", you still need to move it back further with the trigger pull. The best comparison would be to a double only pistol such as S&W 5946 or the NYPD version of the Sig P226 (double only). Difference is longer trigger pull and exposed hammer moving in your sight picture. Neither of those double onlys has an external safety. Individual officers vary, but most shoot and like the Glock better. Brass wants consistent trigger pull, and you can't argue with brass... even if you win, you lose.

Originally Posted by Olle

How can the average Joe Blow tell the difference between an unloaded gun, and one that is ready to fire? I'd say that most people can't, unless they are well trained on Glocks in particular.

I wasn't referencing average citizens or new shooters. My post was specific to LEO's and supposed at least minimal regular training.

Jack

[Olle]

Originally Posted by Jack Lawman

Not comparing Glock's "safeaction" to either double action (DA) or single action (SA). It's a hybrid. It's like a SA because each and every trigger pull is the same (first to last). It's like a DA because although the striker is "preloaded", you still need to move it back further with the trigger pull. The best comparison would be to a double only pistol such as S&W 5946 or the NYPD version of the Sig P226 (double only). Difference is longer trigger pull and exposed hammer moving in your sight picture. Neither of those double onlys has an external safety. Individual officers vary, but most shoot and like the Glock better. Brass wants consistent trigger pull, and you can't argue with brass... even if you win, you lose.

You're exactly right and I do know how a Glock works, but what you said in your previous post was that you won't lose any time manipulating the safety on a Glock, you just pull it and shoot it. What I'm saying is that if you don't use the safety on a gun that has one, you won't lose any time either. Just like you said about the Glock, you just pull it and shoot it. In other words: My point is that if you want to compare how safe and quick the Glock is compared with other guns, you need to compare them as being in at least somewhat similar condition. And I sure hope that the "bad cops" you're talking about don't carry their guns "cocked and unlocked"...

By the way: The only good thing about the Glock trigger is that it's consistent. On the other hand, it's also consistently rough, gritty and almost toy-like, and a buddy of mine compared it with rolling a box up a hill that has a sudden drop where you least expect it. This is of course an exaggerated tounge-in-cheek comment but personally, I can shoot much better with a heavier and longer trigger pull as long as it's smooth.

Originally Posted by Jack Lawman

I wasn't referencing average citizens or new shooters. My post was specific to LEO's and supposed at least minimal regular training.

My comment to your post was actually in agreement with what you said, what I wanted to point out is that Glock is not as safe as people say it is unless you are well trained on this particular gun. If a gun requires a lot of training and practice to be operated in a safe manner, I would say that it's less safe than guns that require less training and practice. There is a place and a use for Glocks, but it's still too easy for private gun owners to think that Glocks are superior because so many LEO's use them. I guess my bottom line is that I'm afraid that too many fall in that trap.