Luger identication help

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Albert's 1906 Portuguese Royal Navy is a world class 100% correct piece and I believe it to be the finest surviving example.

With regard to the comprehension of the use of the word "ignorant", in its vernacular use it, rightly or wrongly, carries the connotation of stupid. I would suggest that "uninformed" might be a better and more polite expression. "Close-minded" is just a personal opinion and reflects a unwarranted bias...in my opinion

I disagree that there was a rush to judgement on the 1900 Commercial. Careful analysis of the first photos presented indicated that it is incorrect and has elements of an attempt to forge a more rare and valuable piece.

Ok, for those 'uninformed collectors'.....
'Close-minded'....how about 'with narrow vision'?

Ron, your such an 'officer and a gentleman'

I do not understand the reason for a person to add a number '20' on the left side of the chamber of the M1900 Commercial in an attempt to forge a more rare and valuable Luger - it is a stupid mistake if the intent was to make a forgery. The added number '20' would not give any weight/benefit to it being a test piece in Portugal in my opinion. Therefore, it would probably have a different meaning and whoever tried to 'forged' this Luger was actually making a mistake and devaluing the item. Instead, I would have stamped a Portugese circle-triangle proof on the pistol even though it is stamped 'Germany'.

Thanks for your praise of my M1906 PRN Luger.

Cheers,
Albert

[Edward Tinker]

but Norme, I decided not to send you that PM....


I wonder if poor ignorant Albert realizes how much restraint this causes me?

Or if he would say things like that if we were in the same room?

I don't get told things like that too often in real life, only from the forum, and it makes it unpleasant staying on a forum where members openingly mock the moderators.

[alanint]

The Internet has become a provider of "electronic courage", it enables many to thump their chest and say things they would not dare to face to face.
It allows mice to roar.....

[Ron Wood]

Albert,
As with most forgeries, a fake only fools the uninformed. If you didn't know the exact details of a so called "Portuguese test Luger" other than it has a large two-digit number on the left receiver and were unaware of the proper serial number range you might become a victim. They might be trite statements but "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and "the uninformed are the easy prey of the forger" are non-the-less true. Not all forgers are smart and not all forgeries are clever and well executed. Sometimes just small juicy details are enough to trap the unwary.

[wlyon]

Albert
Now that's a very special luger. Nice!!! Bill

[John Sabato]

Despite "cultural differences" in the use of the english language by the vairous international members here, I wish to thank you all (especially the original poster Pepe, and my friends Ron Wood and Albert Beliard) for the photographs and the lively discussion which has been an education of the less informed members here on both Luger history and variation differences... (and less informed includes ME ! ) ...and also my long time and dear friend Ed Tinker for a massive display of restraint!

[lugerholsterrepair]

Another rounded off sideplate???? What gives here? Can someone explain this abnormality?

RON?

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Another rounded off sideplate???? What gives here? Can someone explain this abnormality?

RON?

Actually Norme explained it back a few posts. Albert's Luger is a Model 1906...only 1900s and 1902s have a square side plate.

[Norme]

Careful Ron, Albert's Gun isn't just a Model 1906, it's a M1906 Portuguese Royal Navy Contract Luger. I got in trouble that way. Best regards, Norm

[lugerholsterrepair]

Well..you learn something everyday if your not careful.

[Ron Wood]

If you haven't gotten in trouble with Albert, you probably have very little to contribute to a spirited debate. Welcome to the club!

P.S. This is not a slam at Albert...he is a good guy, just stubborn and a little short on tact.

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

If you haven't gotten in trouble with Albert, you probably have very little to contribute to a spirited debate. Welcome to the club!

P.S. This is not a slam at Albert...he is a good guy, just stubborn and a little short on tact.

My friend Ron knows me quite well even though he and I have had a couple of different opinions in the past on some particular areas - which is fare enough. The differences and debates that we have exchanged have always been respectful and most often with good spirit. I welcome the discussions based on common sense and logic, but not those topics which have ties to some bad individuals who have a different agenda. Sometimes I cannot figure out the stupidity of those 'experts' and those collectors who wish to believe it based on unfounded information, therefore, I tend to become 'stubborn' in accepting their views which can be outlandish.

I may not always use the proper words like my friend Ron, so sometimes other people may interprete it as an 'insult' which is usually not my intention, unless someone wishes to attack me. To the person who called me a 'jughead', that is an insult to me, but I do not need to explain why I have more knowledge about German pistols than compared to him. Since I am open to education and for the quest of more knowledge (and finding those pistols as well) after 28 years in the hobby, I shall accept my mistakes when made and afterwards search for the reasons why I was wrong.

My position has always been to share information with fellow collectors and often I enjoy chatting with the 'newbies' who will one day replace us in our society. With the availability of cheap or free internet telephony, I have even taken the time to call some of those people to have a chat. I am not arrogant or rude as some people may say, on the other hand, I am quite a likable guy if you know me well who wants to have a good conversation and a laugh. Over the many years, I have gone pretty far always keeping my reputation and honesty at the highest level, and I shall maintain this level with those people who want to share it with me.

Happy hunting,
Albert

[pepe]

Hello friends

.A gun whith 72 post in the Lugerforum a is always interesting object !!
Meanwhile I dismantled it and I'll post some pictures of the marks I encountered.
Do you agree the numbers are all false?

thanks
pepe

[pepe]

Ron
Can i have your opinion om my last post ?
regards
~pepe

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

If you haven't gotten in trouble with Albert, you probably have very little to contribute to a spirited debate. Welcome to the club!

P.S. This is not a slam at Albert...he is a good guy, just stubborn and a little short on tact.

For those of us who have not read Albert's abbreviated bio, it can be found here -

http://luger.gunboards.com/showpost....6&postcount=59

[LugerVern]

Hi Pepe

You have an interesting gun, yes it has been restored and as such will drive collectors crazy with speculations.

Many consider a restored gun to be a fake no matter what the quality, it is hard to discuss possibilities with thoes who see things only in that light.

Your gun has several issues, Ron says the numbers are not correct and I agree with him, but this is common to many restorations

What is the 20 number? It could be an inventory number from a school, a police department, a special security guard force, guns hand selected for a special purpose from a larger batch. It could have a dozen or so reasons for being.

I would try and find some connection, go back as far as you can in its history of ownership, you might find the answer.

The made in Germany stamp is not just a one way stamp, often we find guns that have come originally to the USA and then back overseas. We sometimes forget that we had marketers who would have sold guns not to just the USA but to oversea contacts as well had the opportunity given itself.

It was all about making money.

Don't give up on your gun, it is very nice to look at and could have some historical importance. You may never be able to prove it however.

I noticed something in one of your pictures that I did find interesting, there is what appears to be the remnant of a Crown B at about the one o'clock position near the 20.
Hard to see but I think something is there.

Thanks for posting Pepe! always interesting


Vern

[LugerVern]

Hi Pepe

The numbers on your gun have been redone at some point, there is very little doubt. Exactly when this was done no one will be able to tell you. So your friend may very well be telling the truth.

I have looked at your gun very closely and I believe your gun is actually in the 15000 range not the 1500 range.

I see a proper DWM 1 & 5 above your SN and based on the spacing believe that your gun is SN 15584

This is based on the pictures you provided and there is some chance of error in the exact number.

I would like for the other members to comment on my observations.

The 1900's are a little out of my area so my question to them is if I am correct would this make the rest of the gun more appropriate, safety lever for example.

As far as your gun being a Portuguese Test gun, we have a long way to go to prove this but if I am correct in the SN this is much closer to the range that we would expect. that being around 18700


I look forward to hearing from the other members

Vern

[Edward Tinker]

Ben, there is a big difference at sharing a few photos of your guns on your own site where no one can comment on them and having them in a posting for comment by fellow collectors.

In reality, there are very few members willing to do so.


Ed

[Edward Tinker]

Pepe, it is 1 AM where Ron lives, so in the morning he will see it


Ed

[Ron Wood]

Pepe,
I agree that the numbers are all false. It appears that the entire gun, except for the trigger, has been renumbered. I have a 1900 Commercial, #3453, which is not very far from the serial number of your gun. The numbers "4" and "5" are common to both guns and it is clear that the font on your gun is incorrect. Also, the numbers "1" and "4" should have a lower serif or "foot" which your gun does not have. If you look at the number on the trigger of your gun, you can see what the "4" should look like, and the small "1" inspector's mark on the under side of the toggle knob is what the "1" in the serial number should look like.