LugerMan Restoration Services - Page 2

hgreer2 · 05-12-2011, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Ponzi? Where in the heck does your mind wander off to?

It tells me that someone that provides a service and not a product does not need money up front. I don't like someone living on my money until he or she gets around to providing the service I paid my hard earned money for. I'm getting ready to spend some heavy bucks with Jerry Burney and not one word of a penny up front.

Harry

hgreer2 · 05-12-2011, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Harry, You have just made a serious, personal accusation against Mr. Green. Unless you can back it up, I think you owe him a public apology. Norm

I don't owe anybody a thing Norme, let Mr. Green come here and defend himself if he wants to open a can of worms. There are people on this site and others that are highly thought of that warned me about sending Mr. Green anything to restore unless you have a considerable amount of time to wait and wait, then wait some more. Thor does some beautiful work, no doubt, I am just trying to tell people so they know what to expect going in and in the process save them a bundle of money.

Regards,
Harry

Kitkat041836 · 05-12-2011, 01:34 PM

Hi Norm
Harry is right on this one,he does not need to give Ted Green
a public apology.I will back Harry up on this one.If you need
a head count on this let me know, I will be glad to arange one
for you.
Thanks George

Norme · 05-12-2011, 01:42 PM

To Harry and George, It seems that neither of you two gentlemen are aware of what a Ponzi scheme is. It is fraud, it is a crime, it is a very serious accusation to make publicly. I suggest that you reconsider your refusal to apologize. Norm

hgreer2 · 05-12-2011, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

To Harry and George, It seems that neither of you two gentlemen are aware of what a Ponzi scheme is. It is fraud, it is a crime, it is a very serious accusation to make publicly. I suggest that you reconsider your refusal to apologize. Norm

You seem to be under the impression that I accused someone of a ponzi. I believe my words were " can you say ponzi".

Harry

cirelaw · 05-12-2011, 01:56 PM

Please Gentleman lets move on!!

hgreer2 · 05-12-2011, 02:21 PM

I'm through, bottom line I just wanted to let folks know they have choices. You can get an excellent restoration in a reasonable amount of time and save 400 bucks in the process.

"GOOD NIGHT, Mrs. Calabash--wherever you are!"
Harry

silverknife · 05-12-2011, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Please Gentleman lets move on!!

While there is a lot of merit to the idea of bringing this to an end I would like to add my thoughts to this discussion.

When I contacted Thor a while ago and asked him to do a museum quality restoration on my luger he promptly replied that he had too much work and would not be able to take on the job. This is the hallmark of an honest man who would not promise something he could not deliver. He could have taken my gun and a substantial deposit but did not. That just confirmed what I had heard about him. I had seen his work at an antique arms show in Los Vegas some time ago where I bought the luger and I had read about him here and on another gun board.

I am very active in collecting handmade custom knives which have been embellished by world class engravers and scrimshanders. Quality work cannot be rushed and no artisan I have ever commissioned to engrave or scrimshaw one of my pieces has ever delivered the work in less than a year, frequently it is much longer. The simple fact is that the artisans who have developed a following and reputation over the years always have an extended turn-around time because of the demand for their work. Obviously Thor has earned a very fine reputation among members of the Luger fraternity for the quality of his work.

If one does not want to put down a substantial deposit than the one can always choose to go elsewhere. Personally I see no problem with Thor or anyone else conducting their business dealings, particularly with strangers, in such a way as to assure themselves that they will be paid for their hard work and talents when they are finished. Whether for a service or a product, business people are, after all, in business to make money. Sure, you could say, "well he has my luger so he has a guarantee that he will be paid." That is not true because it is not HIS luger to sell, it is the customer's luger and trying to sell the gun to pay for his work would constitute crimes on the state and federal level. I am willing to bet that when he started his business, it was not long before he was burned by customers who made him wait an extended period of time before paying him, if they ever did. A substantial deposit can go a long way towards assuring that does not happen. Once again; however, no one forces the customer to seek out his work. If you do not wish to accept his conditions for engaging his services, no one says you must; however requiring a deposit for services to be rendered is a perfectly respectable business practice and to suggest otherwise is simply wrong.

I make knife parts (hilts, collars, butt caps, spacers, etc,) out of pure silver for custom knife makers and for customers of custom knife makers. Each piece is custom made for the particular model of knife being ordered. I do not start the process until the parts are paid in full. It only took one customer years ago who changed his mind after the parts were done for me to institute that policy. If I had a dollar for every person who told me that they wanted knife parts but never actually sent payment, I could buy a couple of really nice lugers.

If Mr. Danner does as good a restoration job for less money and more quickly than Thor, more power to him. In the years to come, if he maintains that level of quality and service, maybe he will earn the reputation and following that Thor has and his work will be in such demand that he too will have extended turn-around times. Perhaps, if that day comes, a "Danner restoration" will mean as much to luger collectors as a "Thor" restoration does now; but throwing rocks at a man whose work is so highly respected and in such high demand that he actually has to turn work away seems ill conceived and maybe just a little mean spirited.

Ultimately, Thor agreed to take on the restoration of my luger. I will get it back when I get it back, and that is fine by me. Like everyone else, I want what I want when I want it, but sometimes you just have to silence that voice in your head and recognize that patience really can be a virtue.

Regards,
Doug

cirelaw · 05-12-2011, 03:43 PM

Thank You Doug. I think it all come down to communication.

hgreer2 · 05-12-2011, 04:40 PM

[If Mr. Danner does as good a restoration job for less money and more quickly than Thor, more power to him. In the years to come, if he maintains that level of quality and service, maybe he will earn the reputation and following that Thor has and his work will be in such demand that he too will have extended turn-around times. Perhaps, if that day comes, a "Danner restoration" will mean as much to luger collectors as a "Thor" restoration does now; but throwing rocks at a man whose work is so highly respected and in such high demand that he actually has to turn work away seems ill conceived and maybe just a little mean spirited.

Regards,
Doug[/QUOTE]

Thor is lucky to have a friend like you, but I'm trying to educate people as to what they can expect before they throw their money on the table, you are right patience is a virtue I no longer possess, as for Mr. Danner.
I'm not aware if you know who John Martz is, but chances are if you own one of his guns, it was blued by Charles Danner, he is no new kid on the block.

"Thanks for your excellent and dependable work." - John V. Martz, top U. S. custom Luger and P-38 builder, Lincoln, CA

Regards,
Harry

Ron Wood · 05-12-2011, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Harry, You have just made a serious, personal accusation against Mr. Green. Unless you can back it up, I think you owe him a public apology. Norm

Ditto.

hgreer2 · 05-12-2011, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Ditto.

It ain't gonna happen. I'm telling the truth and you both know it. Ponzi may have been a little over the top, but the rest is gospel. Are you accusing me of lying ?
I find it somewhat hypocritical that you can cover for Thor, but you will jump on Lugerman for the same practices.

Harry

Kitkat041836 · 05-12-2011, 07:57 PM

Good for you Harry,stick to your guns.
Thanks George

AGE · 05-12-2011, 11:25 PM

I also vouch for Ted (Thor). I have a "brand new" 1915 DWM restored by Ted when he first started out. It would fool anyone since it appears to be an unfired museum piece. Ted wasn't overwhelmed in those days but it still took several months.

Mike B · 05-13-2011, 12:05 AM

Ted restored a 1906 American Eagle for me sometime back. I am not a big fan of restoration, but this particular Luger held a special significance for me. It was typically worn for a 1906 model pistol. No pits or rust, just the finish wear you would expect on a 100 year old weapon. The Luger was involved in a 1955 triple homicide and was given to me by the local chief deputy when the evidence period expired. Ted made no promises as to turn around time. As I recall, about six months after I sent it to him, he sent me an email detailing the work done and amount due. I was very pleased with the bill and EXTREMELY pleased when the Luger arrived. It looks just like I would expect it looked when it was offered for sale at the turn of the century. I cannot say enough about Ted Green's (Thor) work, courtesy in correspondence. He is a true gentleman, artist and craftsman.

Mike

silverknife · 05-13-2011, 12:46 AM

Harry,

I can't really say that Thor is a friend of mine. Perhaps one day, but at this point I have only spoken with him twice on the phone in the context of his restoring my luger.

I do know who John Martz is but my point was not that Mr. Danner does not do quality work, I have not seen his work and even if I had and did not like it, I would not criticize it in an open forum like this. I have seen people post pictures of gosh awful scrimshaw while exclaiming how much they like it and how quickly they got it back. I just shake my head and move on. My point was that Mr. Danner does not appear to have the following that Thor does so it stands to reason that his turn-around time is quicker.

It was not necessary or accurate to call Thor "unreliable and expensive" while speaking well of Mr. Danner. If you like the work and price and delivery time of Mr. Danner no one would question your right to promote him. Simply put, in my opinion it was wrong to denigrate Thor while promoting Mr. Danner.

That Thor's delivery time is longer than Mr. Danner's certainly does not make him unreliable. He told me that it would be a long time before I got my gun back, so I guess I am hoping that he is "unreliable" and he gets it back to me sooner. "Expensive" is a subjective term. Some people think that Fords are expensive while others think that a new Lexus is a bargain.

If your opinion is that Mr. Danner's work is just as good as Thor's, but his turn-around time is faster, and his price is lower, all that could have been said without the personal attack on Ted's character even if you think that it is accurate. It does not seem to me that this is the place for character assasination and my own dealings with Thor do not support those accusations.

Regards,
Doug

Ron Wood · 05-13-2011, 12:49 AM

Harry,
Of course we are not accusing you of lying…just of ranting about a gentleman that you obviously know nothing about. You are a real Boy Scout Harry, protecting all of us dim witted individuals that are willing to pay an honest price for a museum quality restoration and do not expect it to be delivered like a pizza. Your lack of patience is legend. You get all bent out of shape when you do not get same day responses to your posts. You want things that are pretty and you want them right now. Well, things do not always work that way. There are precious few craftsmen capable of world class work and most of them have waiting lists months, if not years, long. I do not doubt that Mr. Danner does wonderful work, and I look forward to seeing some of it firsthand. I am glad you are satisfied with the quality of his refinishing…it looks very nice and I have nothing to say against it.

You have taken great pains and no small amount of snide remarks to point out that Ted takes more time than you are willing to wait to restore Lugers. Big deal. Ted is up front about his schedule and delivery time, and if he expects an upfront investment, it accomplishes a number of things:

-It eliminates tire kickers and lookie-loos…only serious individuals wanting quality work will even consider using his services

-It keeps him from being stuck with a gun that somebody decides they do not want to pay for and he can’t recoup his fee.

-It underscores the fact that he is in a very small and select group of artisans that can legitimately command such upfront investment because they deliver the ultimate in quality.

-It discourages whiners who otherwise would have nothing invested and would feel free to gripe and moan incessantly while the work was being done and would not hesitate to broadcast their lack of patience and childish rants to whomever would listen.

Ted is a gentleman and not deserving of your warnings about his slow delivery. Regardless of the customer, he will tell you himself if he can’t accept a commission because of overload, or that the delivery may well exceed a year in advance. He doesn’t make unreasonable promises just to satisfy an impatient customer. So go ahead, “stick to your guns”…you are shooting blanks. And by the way, there is absolutely no comparison between the work that “Lugerman” and Ted does. It is like comparing an autobody shop paintjob with a quality auto restoration. There is no hypocracy at all.

Kitkat041836 · 05-13-2011, 01:08 AM

Just wanted to thank those who called me to ask for Mr.Danners phone number you will be glad you did.
Thanks Again George
P.S. I have never been paid for a job till it was done. And would not ask for money up front for work I had not yet done.

Ron Wood · 05-13-2011, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitkat041836

P.S. I have never been paid for a job till it was done. And would not ask for money up front for work I had not yet done.

That is your call and I am proud of you...but your experiences and services do not necessarily apply to everyone. Most of the time I do stuff for free. Should I hold you to the same standard?

Kitkat041836 · 05-13-2011, 02:13 AM

Hi Ron
You don't have to I do a lot of things for free also. My question is why pay top dollar in advance and wait a long time, when you can have the same quility for less and have it quicker?
Thanks George
P.S. This is one of the things I do for free,is to help members on this forum get a good deal sooner for less money.

05-12-2011, 07:57 PM	#33
Kitkat041836 RIP Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 195 Thanks: 0 Thanked 21 Times in 18 Posts	Stick To Your Guns Good for you Harry,stick to your guns. Thanks George

05-12-2011, 11:25 PM	#34
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I also vouch for Ted (Thor). I have a "brand new" 1915 DWM restored by Ted when he first started out. It would fool anyone since it appears to be an unfired museum piece. Ted wasn't overwhelmed in those days but it still took several months. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

05-13-2011, 12:46 AM	#36
silverknife User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Western New York Posts: 78 Thanks: 11 Thanked 19 Times in 13 Posts	Harry, I can't really say that Thor is a friend of mine. Perhaps one day, but at this point I have only spoken with him twice on the phone in the context of his restoring my luger. I do know who John Martz is but my point was not that Mr. Danner does not do quality work, I have not seen his work and even if I had and did not like it, I would not criticize it in an open forum like this. I have seen people post pictures of gosh awful scrimshaw while exclaiming how much they like it and how quickly they got it back. I just shake my head and move on. My point was that Mr. Danner does not appear to have the following that Thor does so it stands to reason that his turn-around time is quicker. It was not necessary or accurate to call Thor "unreliable and expensive" while speaking well of Mr. Danner. If you like the work and price and delivery time of Mr. Danner no one would question your right to promote him. Simply put, in my opinion it was wrong to denigrate Thor while promoting Mr. Danner. That Thor's delivery time is longer than Mr. Danner's certainly does not make him unreliable. He told me that it would be a long time before I got my gun back, so I guess I am hoping that he is "unreliable" and he gets it back to me sooner. "Expensive" is a subjective term. Some people think that Fords are expensive while others think that a new Lexus is a bargain. If your opinion is that Mr. Danner's work is just as good as Thor's, but his turn-around time is faster, and his price is lower, all that could have been said without the personal attack on Ted's character even if you think that it is accurate. It does not seem to me that this is the place for character assasination and my own dealings with Thor do not support those accusations. Regards, Doug __________________ Need #23 side plate & toggle axle pin and #01 hold open.

05-13-2011, 12:49 AM	#37
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,037 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,249 Times in 1,721 Posts	Harry, Of course we are not accusing you of lying…just of ranting about a gentleman that you obviously know nothing about. You are a real Boy Scout Harry, protecting all of us dim witted individuals that are willing to pay an honest price for a museum quality restoration and do not expect it to be delivered like a pizza. Your lack of patience is legend. You get all bent out of shape when you do not get same day responses to your posts. You want things that are pretty and you want them right now. Well, things do not always work that way. There are precious few craftsmen capable of world class work and most of them have waiting lists months, if not years, long. I do not doubt that Mr. Danner does wonderful work, and I look forward to seeing some of it firsthand. I am glad you are satisfied with the quality of his refinishing…it looks very nice and I have nothing to say against it. You have taken great pains and no small amount of snide remarks to point out that Ted takes more time than you are willing to wait to restore Lugers. Big deal. Ted is up front about his schedule and delivery time, and if he expects an upfront investment, it accomplishes a number of things: -It eliminates tire kickers and lookie-loos…only serious individuals wanting quality work will even consider using his services -It keeps him from being stuck with a gun that somebody decides they do not want to pay for and he can’t recoup his fee. -It underscores the fact that he is in a very small and select group of artisans that can legitimately command such upfront investment because they deliver the ultimate in quality. -It discourages whiners who otherwise would have nothing invested and would feel free to gripe and moan incessantly while the work was being done and would not hesitate to broadcast their lack of patience and childish rants to whomever would listen. Ted is a gentleman and not deserving of your warnings about his slow delivery. Regardless of the customer, he will tell you himself if he can’t accept a commission because of overload, or that the delivery may well exceed a year in advance. He doesn’t make unreasonable promises just to satisfy an impatient customer. So go ahead, “stick to your guns”…you are shooting blanks. And by the way, there is absolutely no comparison between the work that “Lugerman” and Ted does. It is like comparing an autobody shop paintjob with a quality auto restoration. There is no hypocracy at all. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

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05-12-2011, 01:34 PM	#23
Kitkat041836 RIP Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 195 Thanks: 0 Thanked 21 Times in 18 Posts	Hi Norm Harry is right on this one,he does not need to give Ted Green a public apology.I will back Harry up on this one.If you need a head count on this let me know, I will be glad to arange one for you. Thanks George

05-12-2011, 01:42 PM	#24
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	To Harry and George, It seems that neither of you two gentlemen are aware of what a Ponzi scheme is. It is fraud, it is a crime, it is a very serious accusation to make publicly. I suggest that you reconsider your refusal to apologize. Norm

05-12-2011, 01:56 PM	#26
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Please Gentleman lets move on!!

05-12-2011, 02:21 PM	#27
hgreer2 Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 309 Thanks: 1 Thanked 29 Times in 20 Posts	I'm through, bottom line I just wanted to let folks know they have choices. You can get an excellent restoration in a reasonable amount of time and save 400 bucks in the process. "GOOD NIGHT, Mrs. Calabash--wherever you are!" Harry

05-12-2011, 03:43 PM	#29
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	Thank You Doug. I think it all come down to communication.

05-12-2011, 04:40 PM	#30
hgreer2 Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 309 Thanks: 1 Thanked 29 Times in 20 Posts	[If Mr. Danner does as good a restoration job for less money and more quickly than Thor, more power to him. In the years to come, if he maintains that level of quality and service, maybe he will earn the reputation and following that Thor has and his work will be in such demand that he too will have extended turn-around times. Perhaps, if that day comes, a "Danner restoration" will mean as much to luger collectors as a "Thor" restoration does now; but throwing rocks at a man whose work is so highly respected and in such high demand that he actually has to turn work away seems ill conceived and maybe just a little mean spirited. Regards, Doug[/QUOTE] Thor is lucky to have a friend like you, but I'm trying to educate people as to what they can expect before they throw their money on the table, you are right patience is a virtue I no longer possess, as for Mr. Danner. I'm not aware if you know who John Martz is, but chances are if you own one of his guns, it was blued by Charles Danner, he is no new kid on the block. "Thanks for your excellent and dependable work." - John V. Martz, top U. S. custom Luger and P-38 builder, Lincoln, CA Regards, Harry

05-13-2011, 12:05 AM	#35
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 272 Times in 100 Posts	Ted restored a 1906 American Eagle for me sometime back. I am not a big fan of restoration, but this particular Luger held a special significance for me. It was typically worn for a 1906 model pistol. No pits or rust, just the finish wear you would expect on a 100 year old weapon. The Luger was involved in a 1955 triple homicide and was given to me by the local chief deputy when the evidence period expired. Ted made no promises as to turn around time. As I recall, about six months after I sent it to him, he sent me an email detailing the work done and amount due. I was very pleased with the bill and EXTREMELY pleased when the Luger arrived. It looks just like I would expect it looked when it was offered for sale at the turn of the century. I cannot say enough about Ted Green's (Thor) work, courtesy in correspondence. He is a true gentleman, artist and craftsman. Mike

05-13-2011, 01:08 AM	#38
Kitkat041836 RIP Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 195 Thanks: 0 Thanked 21 Times in 18 Posts	Just wanted to thank those who called me to ask for Mr.Danners phone number you will be glad you did. Thanks Again George P.S. I have never been paid for a job till it was done. And would not ask for money up front for work I had not yet done.

05-13-2011, 02:13 AM	#40
Kitkat041836 RIP Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 195 Thanks: 0 Thanked 21 Times in 18 Posts	Hi Ron You don't have to I do a lot of things for free also. My question is why pay top dollar in advance and wait a long time, when you can have the same quility for less and have it quicker? Thanks George P.S. This is one of the things I do for free,is to help members on this forum get a good deal sooner for less money.