Norinco 9mm

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Mauser George

Red Hot means something different to everyone. I enjoy Tabasco and find it pleasantly mild. To others it is Red Hot.

Does anyone know the specs of this Norinco ammo as that will tell all?

Stieger, off the top of my head I recall reading that the German 9mm Parabellum ammo being 124 gr and upwards of 1400 FPS!

Current 9mm Luger Winchester USA ammo 124 GR RN is only 1140fps!

Since I reload, I seldom purchase ammo!

Regards,

George

Dear George:

Please provide written evidence of the 1,400 fps claim for 124 gr German Army ammo. Believe me, none such evidence exists.

Winchester ammo is propably at the 1,140 fps you claim. This ammo is right at the edge of functionality in some early Lugers, and does jam in others as well.

Current NATO Spec. 9mm is right at 1,260 fps, with a slightly lighter bullet. This is at or near the current Norinco ammo level (blue and red box). It is loaded approximately 20% hotter than the original German military ammo.

Lugers are not designed to shoot hot ammo. They usually will jam on the stuff.

Sieger

[Mauser George]

Sieger:

You asked me to provide evidence of 1400 fps for a 124 gr ammo. Yet you then state to believe you, none such evidence exist!

If you happen to own any reading material regarding Lugers, may I suggest that you do some research in this regard. You just may find what I said to be true as it is discussed in detail and is in black & white.

When I mentioned the specs on the Winchester USA Ammo in my posting, there is no propably(SP?) as you stated in your response. My information is from Winchester printed material as well was their internet site!

I would like to respectfully ask you where you ever came up with the information to make the following two statements?

1) Lugers are not designed to shoot hot ammo.
2) They usually will jam on the stuff. How so?

Regards,

George

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Mauser George

"You asked me to provide evidence of 1,400 fps for a 124 gr ammo. Yet you then state to believe you, none such evidence exist! If you happen to own any reading material regarding Lugers, may I suggest that you do some research in this regard. You just may find what I said to be true as it is discussed in detail and is in black & white. "

As you couldn't or wouldn't site your source for the 1,400 fps 124 gr German ammo, let me site my sources for the 1,076 fps 123 grain German ammo (which is specifically identified as Luger ammo) by the original manufactures and distributors themselves.

1) From "Die Pistole 08", Joachim Goertz, page 200, Muendungsgeschwindigkeit 327 m/sec. bei 100mm Lauflaenge.

2) From "Die Selbstlade Pistole Parabellum-Original Mauser", Mauser owners' manual of the late 1930s. Technische Merkmale, Geschossgeschwindigkeit 322 m/sec. (100mm Lauflaenge).

3) From "Die Selbstlade-Pistole Parabellum" DWM's pre WWI commercial owners' Manual, Anfangsgeschwindigkeit des Geschosses 310m/sec. bei 100mm Lauflaenge.

4) From "German Infantry Weapons", Donald McLean, 1966,
page 5, muzzle velocity 1,040 fps.

5) From "Pacific Arms Corporation", 1922, page 8, velocity at muzzle, 1,039 fps.

6) From "A. F. Stoeger, Inc., Catalog No 18", page 136, velocity at muzzle, 1,040 fps.

The hottest of the metric loads 327 m/sec is the 1,076 fps load I quote herein.

I've been studying the original Parabellum specs. for years and from various sources, both from the original manufactures and original distributors sources.

"When I mentioned the specs on the Winchester USA Ammo in my posting, there is no propably(SP?) as you stated in your response. My information is from Winchester printed material as well was their internet site!

Great!

I would like to respectfully ask you where you ever came up with the information to make the following two statements?

"1) Lugers are not designed to shoot hot ammo."

Please see my discussion of the original manufacturers and distributors specs. above.

"2) They usually will jam on the stuff. How so?"

I've been shooting Lugers for some 40 years and loading for them for some 30 years. If you load with medium burning rate powders (SR 4756 is excellent) at a velocity somewhat near the ones sited above, the pistols work beautifully and do not jam. Load them much hotter, and the springs get out of timing and the pistols will jam.

Regards,

George

Sieger

[Mauser George]

Sieger:

This thread regarding 9mm Parabellum seems to be going in the wrong direction, as it appears you are more interested in arguing, and you and only you know all the facts.

It is for that reason that I am not going any further as I respect Ed Tinker as he has made his feeling known already regarding this thread and the direction it is heading.

What I said is correct and factual as it is in black and white as I indicated previously.

Good luck and the best in your Luger collecting.

Regards,

George
Upstate New York

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Mauser George

Sieger:

"This thread regarding 9mm Parabellum seems to be going in the wrong direction, as it appears you are more interested in arguing, and you and only you know all the facts."

I have sited original sources on the subject (in black and white). So far, you haven't sited anything, though you claim that there is a source. We are not arguing. I'm trying to set the record straight regarding the myth of the "hot load" requirement. I have sited my sources, please site yours.

"It is for that reason that I am not going any further as I respect Ed Tinker as he has made his feeling known already regarding this thread and the direction it is heading."

When faced with facts, no argument exists for the "hot load" theory. If there are facts to the contrary, I'd be perfectly willing to read them and discuss them with anyone.

"What I said is correct and factual as it is in black and white as I indicated previously."

I have asked for a site of your 1,400 fps 124 gr German load. You have not responded in "black and white" or otherwise. I think a reference to any of the modern widely published Reloading Guides will clearly show you that it is not possible to load a 124 gr. bullet, to 1,400 fps, in a 9mm Parabellum case, at any safe pressure level. In fact, it would be EXTREMELY DANGEROUS TO DO SO!

"Good luck and the best in your Luger collecting."

I have collected and shot Lugers for the last 30 years. It has been a very enjoyable and interesting hobby for me. Thank you for your best wishes!!

Regards,

George
Upstate New York

Have a pleasent and safe day, and I hope the weather, there, is better than it is here.

Sieger

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Have a pleasent and safe day, and I hope the weather, there, is better than it is here.

Sieger

15ºF here today; 12 inches of snow on the ground.

Where's this "global warming" the alarmists are warning everyone about???

Our local weather station said that last year was the coldest in 50 years...and the year before was second coldest...

I think 2010 is going to be the new winner...

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by postino

15ºF here today; 12 inches of snow on the ground.

Where's this "global warming" the alarmists are warning everyone about???

Our local weather station said that last year was the coldest in 50 years...and the year before was second coldest...

I think 2010 is going to be the new winner...

Dear Postino

You know, the fellow in bed in your avatar must have shot some of that mythical 1,400 fps 124 grain German Army ammo through his Luger. Just look at what it has done to his hand, eyes and face. Ha!! By the way, the byline in German says "Will you be next?"

Here, in NYC, we are suppose to have a 0 degree Fahrenheit night. It's not that cold now, so I doubt it will get down that low.

Global Warming Theory, Ha!

Hope all is well there!!


Sieger

[alvin]

Originally Posted by postino

Where's this "global warming" the alarmists are warning everyone about???

Heard of a country named "Tuvalu"? If not heard before, that's normal, it's not easy to find her on map.

People of Tuvalu said "All 6 billion people on Earth should applogize to us!" Why? global warming raises ocean level and the country submerges in water more frequently.

Today is Tuvalu, tommorrow will be New York.