Norinco 9mm

[Edward Tinker]

PLAY NICE GENTLEMAN !!!!


You guys are all trying to help others; so no harm no foul, but lets be nice.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

PLAY NICE GENTLEMAN !!!!


You guys are all trying to help others; so no harm no foul, but lets be nice.

Bismarck once said..."kind words cost nothing" This is often true.

Sieger

[alvin]

If you donate 10 rounds to me, I can measure it's speed and post the result here. No estimation work for that's not needed. The speed can be easily measured.

Inconsistency could be a problem. Randomly picking up 10 rounds from the box, the result should be typical, at least for this box.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by alvin

If you donate 10 rounds to me, I can measure it's speed and post the result here. No estimation work for that's not needed. The speed can be easily measured.

Inconsistency could be a problem. Randomly picking up 10 rounds from the box, the result should be typical, at least for this box.

Alvin:

Actually, a donation of a box of the new Norinco (Red or Blue box) would have more current meaning.

If I were in Florida, where my pistols are, I'd be happy to donate a box, as I have no further use for it.

Sieger

[jonnyc]

I searched for "Chinese" and "Chinese ammunition" and didn't see anything relevant. I did run across a good-many posts about others happily and safely using Norinco ammo, however. Please post a link.

[alvin]

On a local gun show, I saw a guy pushing a baby stroller with two rifles on it for sale. One was a Chinese made SKS. I was looking at an ammo table and he happened standing next to me. Another young man was interested in the SKS, obviously a newbie. The seller was not good on talking and he introduced almost nothing. The ammo table owner was more business oriented sales guy, it's not his business, but he somehow was excited, and said many good words on Norinco product in general, and on this SKS in particular.

Looks like the buyer was not very happy on the asking price, he was shy and did not bargain, just put down the gun back on the stroller and about to walk away. I standed nearby and ask the seller "How much do you want on this SKS?"

It's so noisy in the hall, the seller did not hear what I asked. But the previous viewer heard that and he turned around quickly "I will take it"

[Sieger]

Jonnyc:

Please search the word "fork" and look at the fifth post where a 1917's fork broke apart in three pieces after shooting the Chinese stuff.

Sieger

[jonnyc]

OK, I'll try to be polite here, but that was truly a fascinating discussion.
1. The ammo in question there was some unknown Chinese 115 grain, the ammo in this thread is Norinco 124 grain, so there really is no relevance.
2. The final outcome of the discussion on how the Artillery blew up was that the "gunsmith" had used improper tools and heat treating, not an ammo issue at all.
3. The only poster who had anything to say about the "red hot +P++" ammo was...hmmm...Sieger.
Now you have described this ammo as "+P at least, +P+, and +P++". I'm not even sure what +P++ is, but I don't think there's a SAAMI rating for that.
I will refrain from discussing this here anymore until I have chrono'd my 124 grain Norinco, the exact same stuff pictured above. I would suggest doing the same to avoid digging the hole any deeper.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by jonnyc

"2. The final outcome of the discussion on how the Artillery blew up was that the "gunsmith" had used improper tools and heat treating, not an ammo issue at all."

Really, there seems to be quite a lot of discussion regarding ammo and one little post regarding this "theory". Sorry! The original poster says that he had been using Winchester White Box sucessfully, but that on the second clip of the Chinese stuff, the fork cracked in three places. Let's be realistic here!


"3. The only poster who had anything to say about the "red hot +P++" ammo was...hmmm...Sieger.
Now you have described this ammo as "+P at least, +P+, and +P++". I'm not even sure what +P++ is, but I don't think there's a SAAMI rating for that."

I commented in the post, but surely wasn't the only one posting on the hot ammo issue. Please read the discussion again.

+P++ means stuff that will distroy a pistol, like the unidentified TZZ stuff that cracked the frame on my Dad's byf 43 P-38, or the Chinese stuff that broke the poster's fork in three places!!

+P+ means NATO standard ammo, 121 grains at 1260!

+P something less than that, but hotter than the original Luger ammo of 123 grains at 1076!

"I will refrain from discussing this here anymore until I have chrono'd my 124 grain Norinco, the exact same stuff pictured above."

I'll be in Florida next month and will test the blue and red box Norinco myself, but surely not through my Lugers.

" I would suggest doing the same to avoid digging the hole any deeper."

I agree, rather than definding something you are not sure about, let's get some facts!!!

Sieger

[Mauser George]

Seiger:

Based on your recent posting, it seems that you are more interested in arguing, antagonizing and creating a conflict than anything else. Nice try though Bob.

Perhaps I would feel same if I resided at the bottom of the wonderful state of New York. Based on that fact and the gun control instituted by your neighbors, do you do even own any Lugers?

George

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Mauser George

Seiger:

Based on your recent posting, it seems that you are more interested in arguing, antagonizing and creating a conflict than anything else. Nice try though Bob.

Perhaps I would feel same if I resided at the bottom of the wonderful state of New York. Based on that fact and the gun control instituted by your neighbors, do you do even own any Lugers?

George

Dear George:

I'm still waiting for some proof of that 1,400 fps, 124 grain German Army load from you. As of yet, I have received nothing but insults.

Yes, I have quite a collection of Lugers ranging from a 1917 DWM to the later Mauser Parabellum recreations, if its any of your personal business.

I wished you a good day, but you seem to be having a bad one. I sure hope that I am not the cause of it.

Sieger

[Vlim]

Not wanting to throw oil on the fire here, but I can confirm that just about all sources I've come across mention the same velocities for the P08 / 9x19 para combo: about 320m/s.

I have some extensive ammunition test lists from the proof house in Ulm. They tested several brands of 9x19 para in the 1970s in order to come up with a suitable reference round for Mauser's post war production. When Mauser tested, they found the average v of modern ammo to be a tad higher (around 340 - 350m/s).

I've attached some test results from Mauser themselves, dating from around 1975, hope that helps:

Hersteller = Producer
Geschossgewichte = bullet weight in grams.
Geschosstype = bullet type (vollmantel = FMJ, Hohlspitzgeschoss = hollow point, panzerbrechend = armour piercing)

V measured with a 6" barrel, 5 meters away from the muzzle.

An additional report from the Mauser engineers:
b. Winchester, lot number 7658 DF 1.
The average gas pressure of these rounds is some 2177 bar and shows deviations of +124 / - 112 bar. This ammunition was used without problems and gave good results, undoubtedly because of the accurate production.

c. Norma, lot number 08915.
The average gas pressure of these rounds is some 2515 bar and shows deviations of +128 / -411 bar. The ammunition functions some 25% above user gas pressure and shoots very high as a result (highest sight needed)

d. Geco, lot number march 1971.
The average gas pressure of this round is some 1815 bar and shows deviations of +136 / -185. With this ammunition constant good results were had.

Interesting is that both Geco and Winchester produced a v of some 350 m/s on average and that, with much higher chamber pressures, Norma averaged at a lower v of some 344 m/s.

[Vlim]

Just for completeness sake, here is an interesting box of Geco 9x19 para from the 1980s. It was custom loaded for former NWM manager Henk Visser's personal use.

The V on the overlabel is given as 280 m/s, which is quite mild for P08 standards, as the commercial Geco is already a pretty mild round.

And some scans from a 1953 DDR manual on pistol and rifle rounds with v for the WW2 ammunition they were still using those days.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Vlim

Just for completeness sake, here is an interesting box of Geco 9x19 para from the 1980s. It was custom loaded for former NWM manager Henk Visser's personal use.

The V on the overlabel is given as 280 m/s, which is quite mild for P08 standards, as the commercial Geco is already a pretty mild round.

And some scans from a 1953 DDR manual on pistol and rifle rounds with v for the WW2 ammunition they were still using those days.

Dear Vlim:

Thank you for your contribution.

Around 320 m/sec, out of a 100mm (4 inch) barrel, seems to be the normal German Army load I've also been able to identify (see above post).

I hope you are having better weather than my friends in Berlin are having!!

Thanks again!

Sieger

[jonnyc]

Way too cold today for anything more scientific, but here are the results of my limited testing:

PRC 124 grain in an Argentine Hi-Power (20 rounds):
Hi 1184 fps
Low 1128 fps
Avg 1161 fps

Rem. 115 grain in an Argentine Hi-Power (10 rounds):
Hi 1122 fps
Low1079 fps
Avg 1097 fps

WWB 115 grain in a 1940 Luger (8 rounds):
Hi 1158 fps
Low 1085 fps
Avg 1127 fps

Like I said, not scientific, but indicative none-the-less. I would not call the PRC ammo +P, let alone +P+ or "red hot +P++". Use whatever you like, but nothing but foolishness to call the PRC ammo dangerous or over-loaded to dangerous pressures. In addition, a correct reading of the attached thread about the exploding Arty. Luger clearly indicates a poor "gunsmithing" job and not an ammunition problem.
I will continue to use WWB in my Lugers, as they function 100% with that, but I would not hesitate to use the PRC 124 grain FMJ in any of my 9mm pistols.
That's all I have to say on the issue, and I will not participate in any foolish pissing-match over this.
Can't wait for a bit of "Global Warming" to hit my neighborhood!

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by jonnyc

Way too cold today for anything more scientific, but here are the results of my limited testing:

PRC 124 grain in an Argentine Hi-Power (20 rounds):
Hi 1184 fps
Low 1128 fps
Avg 1161 fps

Rem. 115 grain in an Argentine Hi-Power (10 rounds):
Hi 1122 fps
Low1079 fps
Avg 1097 fps

WWB 115 grain in a 1940 Luger (8 rounds):
Hi 1158 fps
Low 1085 fps
Avg 1127 fps

"In addition, a correct reading of the attached thread about the exploding Arty. Luger clearly indicates a poor "gunsmithing" job and not an ammunition problem."

I really can't agree with your conclusion here, but people often reach different conclusions given the same or simmilar facts.

"I will continue to use WWB in my Lugers, as they function 100%with that, but I would not hesitate to use the PRC 124 grain FMJ in any of my 9mm pistols."

It's your Luger, not mine.

Dear JonnyC:

Santa brought me a new chronograph for Christmas, so when I'm in Florida next month, I'll try to confirm your findings. I am shooting the Norinco Red box, you didn't mention just what you were shooting above, as there may be substantial differences in the different types of ammo manufactured by Norinco.

What I did experience with the Norinco Red Box was severe breech-block slap. This is when the rear of the breech-block, where the firing pin retainer is, slaps against the rear frame of the Luger. The slap was quite severe in that it made a deep impression on the surface of the frame (breech-block is hardened, frame is soft). The pistol practically jumped out of my hand!

Breech-block slap is among the main reasons for Luger mechanical failure. None of the American made 9mm I've used in the past ever did this! After the first magazine, I retired the red box to my gun room for use in one of my other 9mm pistols.

It's noon here and only 19 degrees. This is about 10 degrees cooler than normal.

Sieger

[jonnyc]

As I said previously, I had the exact same ammo, box and headstamp, as the OP. That's what was asked about...that's what I discussed...that's what I tested.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by jonnyc

As I said previously, I had the exact same ammo, box and headstamp, as the OP. That's what was asked about...that's what I discussed...that's what I tested.

Dear JonnyC:

I found an interesting post on the net today that might shed some light on both of our positions.

"If it has just NORINCO 9mm on the headstamp, then it is Commercial Norinco and the brass will be on the thin side for reloading. If it has the triangle on the headstamp, then it is Military Spec Norinco ammunition."

and

"We tested some several years ago...Results +P from a G19."

It looks like there are at least two different types of Norinco 9mm out there. I can't remember which head stamp mine has, but I did buy it, off of the net, within the last three years or so.

Exactly what is on your types' case head?


Sieger

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Sieger

"If it has just NORINCO 9mm on the headstamp, then it is Commercial Norinco and the brass will be on the thin side for reloading. If it has the triangle on the headstamp, then it is Military Spec Norinco ammunition."

Do you have a pic of the "Norinco" on the headstamp??? That's a lot of letters to get on a 9mm cartridge head...with the 9mm letters/number as well...

What is this "red box" Norinco ammunition??? Test ammo???

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by postino

Do you have a pic of the "Norinco" on the headstamp??? That's a lot of letters to get on a 9mm cartridge head...with the 9mm letters/number as well...

What is this "red box" Norinco ammunition??? Test ammo???

Dear Postino:

I'm not an expert on Chinese types of ammo, as I had such a bad experience with the ammo I tried that I was totally turned off by it. The quote from the net above has not been verified by me, rather, it was a passing comment of a poster from 2006.

Go to the Gunbroker.com site and search Norinco 9mm. What should come up is what I purchased off of this site about three years ago. It packaged in either a darker red box or a light blue box. As stated above, I really don't remember the head stamp on the ammo, but it was loaded in very light, thin cases.

This is the red hot stuff I'm referring to. This is what is commonly available for purchase today. This is the stuff that caused severe breech-block slap in my byf 41.

No, it's not test ammo, or it is not marked as such.

I hope that answered your queston.

Sieger