WTK can I put a butt stock on this pistol

Ron Wood · 11-20-2009, 09:58 PM

Odd as it may seem, if an original full arty upper, i.e. barrel (with LP08 sights), relieved receiver and toggle train are mounted on the frame, WWI DWM or Erfurt, it becomes a mis-matched LP08 and would be legal with a stock. I seriously doubt that an incorrect toggle train would make much difference. The key item is that original barrel/receiver group that makes it legal. Even adding an aftermarket repro LP08 barrel with correct sights to a relieved receiver would make it OK. What the BATFE is looking for is original configuration. Just adding a 8" barrel without the tangent sight won't hack it.

sheepherder · 11-20-2009, 10:39 PM

Note to Junkmanted -

Sarco sells the repro arty barrel and sight...And I believe Lugerdoc here on this forum may as well...and I think Lugerdoc has the arty rear toggle too...

They ain't cheap...but if you just have to have a stocked Luger...

PhilOhio · 12-04-2009, 11:34 AM

Here we go again on the detachable stock debate.

Note also that ATF has, in writing, issued a ruling that a reproduction detachable stock may also be attached to these long barrelled Lugers. That's only because, years ago, I believe it was advanced collector and author Tom Nelson who made the effort to ask them. It related to his Collector's Armory repro stocks. This should give some indication of the seriousness, or lack thereof, with which ATF regards this never ending debate as to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

There are indeed supervisory people within ATF who understand what law enforcement is all about, and how their employees' time should be budgeted effectively.

Sure, there may also be a few bean counters with political goals in mind...disciples of Chuck Schumer et al.

Note also that in ATF's published list of which Mauser C1896 Broomhandle models may legally have original or reproduction butt stocks attached, the answer is all of them. That includes the short barreled bolos. I.e., if it is a Broomhandle, it can have a stock. Period. I believe they worded it "all models", last time I looked. If anybody should make the written request to extend the wording to original C&R Lugers (over 50 years old), I imagine it would have to be granted, for the sake of consistency and easier enforcement.

Isn't it strange that nobody has made such a request to ATF? I guess it is more fun to perpetuate the silly debate.

Note also that all C&R 1935 Browning Hi-Power and Inglis pistols may have the original or repro stocks attached legally. Those barrels are roughly 5". Was ATF worried about street crime issues when that was decided? Of course not.

The Internet seems to be a wonderful outlet for a certain type of alarmist view, warning inexperienced collectors of the horrors which await them if they violate some obscure term of some obscure subparagraph of some vague rule on something having little to do with real world law enforcement and keeping the streets safe from armed thugs.

Asked about this issue a few years back, an ATF field agent of my Internet acquaintance said that if they tried to bring in a citizen on one of these goofy technical charges, ATF management and any sane prosecutor would laugh them out of the office and/or reassign them to non-mainstream duties more befitting their demonstrated lack of common sense.

But on the Internet, common sense is sometimes in short supply. ...such as how violating so-and-so will get you "10 years at the Graybar Hotel" where "you will be the girlfriend of a large man named Igor" who is doing time for molesting donkeys.

Perhaps somebody could cite a verifiable case where somebody has done time for attaching a shoulder stock to a C&R Luger with a 4" barrel, where no other alleged real world criminal violation was involved. Yes, it is true that a prosecutor might try to hang this one on a guy who was clearly guilty of a bunch of other things, and where this charge might be tacked on for good measure, and plea bargaining value.

Common sense should enter into everybody's process of deciding how to budget their worrying time. Otherwise, it just leads to unnecessarily strained sphincter muscles.

11-20-2009, 09:58 PM	#1
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,120 Thanked 5,287 Times in 1,728 Posts	Odd as it may seem, if an original full arty upper, i.e. barrel (with LP08 sights), relieved receiver and toggle train are mounted on the frame, WWI DWM or Erfurt, it becomes a mis-matched LP08 and would be legal with a stock. I seriously doubt that an incorrect toggle train would make much difference. The key item is that original barrel/receiver group that makes it legal. Even adding an aftermarket repro LP08 barrel with correct sights to a relieved receiver would make it OK. What the BATFE is looking for is original configuration. Just adding a 8" barrel without the tangent sight won't hack it. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

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11-20-2009, 10:39 PM	#2
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,208 Thanks: 1,425 Thanked 4,474 Times in 2,343 Posts	Note to Junkmanted - Sarco sells the repro arty barrel and sight...And I believe Lugerdoc here on this forum may as well...and I think Lugerdoc has the arty rear toggle too... They ain't cheap...but if you just have to have a stocked Luger...

12-04-2009, 11:34 AM	#3
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Here we go again on the detachable stock debate. Note also that ATF has, in writing, issued a ruling that a reproduction detachable stock may also be attached to these long barrelled Lugers. That's only because, years ago, I believe it was advanced collector and author Tom Nelson who made the effort to ask them. It related to his Collector's Armory repro stocks. This should give some indication of the seriousness, or lack thereof, with which ATF regards this never ending debate as to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. There are indeed supervisory people within ATF who understand what law enforcement is all about, and how their employees' time should be budgeted effectively. Sure, there may also be a few bean counters with political goals in mind...disciples of Chuck Schumer et al. Note also that in ATF's published list of which Mauser C1896 Broomhandle models may legally have original or reproduction butt stocks attached, the answer is all of them. That includes the short barreled bolos. I.e., if it is a Broomhandle, it can have a stock. Period. I believe they worded it "all models", last time I looked. If anybody should make the written request to extend the wording to original C&R Lugers (over 50 years old), I imagine it would have to be granted, for the sake of consistency and easier enforcement. Isn't it strange that nobody has made such a request to ATF? I guess it is more fun to perpetuate the silly debate. Note also that all C&R 1935 Browning Hi-Power and Inglis pistols may have the original or repro stocks attached legally. Those barrels are roughly 5". Was ATF worried about street crime issues when that was decided? Of course not. The Internet seems to be a wonderful outlet for a certain type of alarmist view, warning inexperienced collectors of the horrors which await them if they violate some obscure term of some obscure subparagraph of some vague rule on something having little to do with real world law enforcement and keeping the streets safe from armed thugs. Asked about this issue a few years back, an ATF field agent of my Internet acquaintance said that if they tried to bring in a citizen on one of these goofy technical charges, ATF management and any sane prosecutor would laugh them out of the office and/or reassign them to non-mainstream duties more befitting their demonstrated lack of common sense. But on the Internet, common sense is sometimes in short supply. ...such as how violating so-and-so will get you "10 years at the Graybar Hotel" where "you will be the girlfriend of a large man named Igor" who is doing time for molesting donkeys. Perhaps somebody could cite a verifiable case where somebody has done time for attaching a shoulder stock to a C&R Luger with a 4" barrel, where no other alleged real world criminal violation was involved. Yes, it is true that a prosecutor might try to hang this one on a guy who was clearly guilty of a bunch of other things, and where this charge might be tacked on for good measure, and plea bargaining value. Common sense should enter into everybody's process of deciding how to budget their worrying time. Otherwise, it just leads to unnecessarily strained sphincter muscles.