Refinish or not, a matching Luger is still original, yes?

[Jasta2]

I take with Luger collecting, completely matching is number one, followed closely second by it's original finish. So a 85% finish, matching 1900 AE test or P-08 would be collectable, but a refinished (restored) completely matching 1900 AE test would not be,Correct? I thought once in would be nice to collect the early chamber dated DWMs & ERFURTs. Being of not unlimited funds, cost would be a factor. Researching prices a 1914 of either make, matching and with original finish looked to be $2,000+ per Luger. If I went with the refinished (reblued) matching 1914, the cost a little more than 1/2 the cost. A matching 1914 is still a completely original Luger as built, less it's original finish, yes? Or should I stay with only original finish Lugers of lower grade, pits and all, than a nicely restored Luger. So if I had $10k to spend, five $2k original finish Lugers than say 10 Lugers that were refinished or of poor quaility, but matching in order to collect more dates. I know what you guys are going to say. Stay to 85% original finish despite the cost.

[FNorm]

And yet you take a pile of junk, turn it back into a classic car... And still get criticized because you put in a walnut dash, or painted it a color, other than as it came from the factory.

Your collection, your $$ do what YOU want.

FN

[Ron Smith]

Stay with the most original and matching pieces that you can afford. A refinished Luger will always be looked at and valued as a shooter, unless it's exceptionally rare.

You can up grade as time goes by. An all original, matching Luger with a few light rough spots is always more desirable, because it is still original.

[alvin]

I believe it depends on people's view. One view is ALL MATCHING actually being IMPLIED on regular collectible C&R. Under that precondition, talk about % of original finish, matching accessories, etc. Since all matching on gun is IMPLIED, it's often not mentioned as a credit.

This assumption hurt me once since I wrongly assumed others had the same view. Fortunately, the seller (a big dealership) allowed me to return a rig, although the tiny print on receipt saying they don't guarantee matching. Whew.

====

Having said that, all matching gun still has advantage over mismatching gun from functional point of view. All matching gun usually works well. So, an all matching refurbished gun is a little bit higher than a mismatched refurbished one.

Edit: For some reason, regular WWI military 4" Luger is not very hot, and attracts less professional works. It's good oppertunity to acquire a few if price is right in today's buyer's market.

[Jasta2]

Restore or survivor? This goes in the car world-Corvettes at least. 100% restored to original brings big bucks and awards, but so do the Corvette survivors. A local doctor as a complete original, well worn, 1960 Corvette. Faded paint, even tears in the seat and rust on some of the chrome, but it is 100% original as from the factory It won a "Bow Tie" award for it's originality ( adding many thousands to it's value ) at the nations highest level Corvette meet. He drives it at times and get hammered by others why he will not restore it. Little do they know. I see it is the same with luger collecting, except a 100% restoration ( if possable) would only lower a Luger's value ( except a very poor rarer luger). What puzzels me is the 'patina thing'. In military metals/awards seems like the original patina, it own original aging adds value to the award. If I were to clean/polish my WW1 flight badges to their original bright look,, without harming the badge, it's worth would drop. Now if I had a bright, as new, pilots badge stored away for all the years, it that case the value would be way up. During my 20 years in the military, if I showed up at a inspection with "Patina" on my badges/awards, harsh words were to follow. Sorry guys, this got away from Lugers, but sometims I look at something well worn and think it would be better brought back. I see I am 'very wrong' doing this in the collecting world, outside cars I guess.
Thanks,Bill

[PhilOhio]

Bill,

I don't think you are wrong about "bringing back" a well worn classic, be it gun or auto. It is a matter of personal taste and values. Please do it when, in your own judgment, it seems truly necessary. And of course the threshold is a subjective thing.

The wisdom of such an undertaking should also be judged by how the restoration is to be done. In the past, the origin of this worship of total originality related to the fact that almost all refinishing was poorly done, with too much buffing which rounded corners, removed markings, and generally ruined the gun. That is not unavoidable. It's about skill and the craftsman's approach to what he does. There are some master restorers on this board. They produce art. It has value, in my opinion great value.

In the collector world, collecting anything, there are people who are rigid in their thinking and insist that the firearm has lost most of its value if it is restored or refinished. This opinion is nothing more than that, opinion, with no justification except more opinion, at least in my view. It's "well, somebody who's an expert says..." ...so John Doe decides he must think the same thing. In heaven's name why?

I love this purist point of view and encourage it. Really. Because the worship of cosmetics puts many fine firearms within my financial reach. And I will indeed restore them, if sufficiently worn. And cherish and enjoy them. I could not care less what a rigid-minded collector "thinks" they are "worth". Most of the firearms buying public rejects this purist point of view, completely. High prices for carefully refinished Lugers (and Corvettes and everything else) reflect this reality. Go to any gun show and price a Luger which is pristine, except for having been carefully and professionally refinished. Try to buy it at a $400 to $600 "shooter" price, as purists insist the market to be. You will be laughed out of the hall.

That said, if those who fancy themselves "serious collectors" are willing to pay astronomical prices for totally original guns, that is fine also. These are the folks who will never shoot them and who will give them ultimate care to keep them in this condition for posterity. All of that is good. But living in the real world is more fun for me, and it involves less painful intestinal knotting and contractions. And I don't agonize over electronically controlling humidity and maintaining a calendar schedule for wiping guns with silicone clothes...once I have fully researched exactly which ones to buy.

There is room in the boat for everybody. But the notion that it is a travesty to restore a cosmetically worn collectible gun or Corvette is malarky. It's all a state of mind. Those who disagree are never able to explain exactly why it is so important. They just keep insisting that it is. I say, If something is broken, you fix it. But you should not cobble it up. And yep, all of this is only my opinion also.

What I hate to see is when a truly fine, original gun accidentally comes into the hands of somebody who has no clue as to what it is, and how or why it should be preserved as a collectible. This happens all the time, usually through inheritance, etc. It behooves all of us to intervene, when we can, and try to steer such collectibles to those who know and appreciate them, who will care for them, and who will try to pass them on to somebody who feels the same way. Nope, I would not refinish one of those Lugers, or sell it to the guy with more money than brains, who plans to weld on a highly "tactical" ten inch flash suppressor, or convert it to .40 S&W.

No offense to all you Serious Collectors on this board. In fact, I'd like to help you get rid of those no good, refinished, or worn finish Lugers which have been forced upon you in trades, etc. So to show that my heart is in the right place, I'll make a standing offer of $400, the "shooter value" you talk about, for any original Luger which has matching numbers, is complete and functional, has a good bore, but has either been professionally refinished without rounding corners and removing markings, or else has some bright metal which could benefit from refinishing.

I doubt that my In-box will be flooded with offers, but hey, I could deal with it.

[Edward Tinker]

Phil, most of the guys here who say that a restored is not worth as much as an original are correct. I do think a very nice restoration is a pretty thing, and no, it is not worth "only" a shooter price.

I have heard two ways to judge the value of a restored piece.

1. Take a well used example and have it restored, its now worth about the cost of a shooter, plus the restore cost. This is good for average priced items.

2. Rarer items, then you take the value of say an 80-85% original gun and its worth half the value.


Also, it depends on what you collect, it is much more acceptable to "semi-restore" a garand, or a 1911 or the like, because parts from the same era can be correct. Harder to do for lugers with the matched parts.


but to change the subject;
I am amazed at how many "collectors" are always looking for "pretty" guns. Well heck, the newest luger from WW2 is about 66 years old, while a 1900 model is from about 99 to 109 years old. Why in the world do we see so many "mint / extremly nice with strong strawing" lugers at shows and collections? That is crazy to me. Yes I have seen some very nice guns in collections, and they are usually proper and original.
But I sure wonder why I see so many that are so nice for sale over the years.

Me personally, as a collector I want to find the nicest original guns I can; because in 10-20 years, those will be worth a lot more than a restored gun. It doesn't mean I would by-pass a rare restored gun, but I am not going to go look for one. I'd rather have a 80% original with some blemishes than a 100%, no original finish gun. Its lost its history with the new blue, sanding, blueing, sanding; for 3 or 4 times to get that original color...


Ed

[lew1]

I have a Hi-Power that was restored. I have had people turn up their noses at it. (Not for sale but in a display.)

I did not restore it - rather Sidney A. did.

Yet it is the "only" known example. It was one of two examples. The other was last known in 1932.

I ask some of these people to go and find me another example.

[Jasta2]

Thanks all, No, I would not go for a cheap refinish, but use someone that knows Lugers. At the same time I must think that the original cost, added to the restoration cost, does not far outweigh it's final worth. I would not think anything with 75+% should need restoring. 95% original finish does look nice, but I agree, a Luger that shows it's use, better with unit markings, shows it's history and I would be happy to have it as-is. I would not pass-up a reblue if it was what I was looking for.
Thanks again,Bill

[Roadkill]

I sent a mismatched 1918 Erfurt to Ted for restoration about eight years ago. Would its value now as a restoration be more than it was as an unmatched mongrel? Its a beautiful gun.

[alvin]

All those stuff, original finish, all matching, period correct accessories, capturing paper, provenance, special marking, etc, etc are just ways to limit the volume size in the N-dimentional space.

I heard this phrase very frequently: "something something is less collectible".

Actually, "less collectible" does not neccessarily always be a minus, it's a plus from another angle. It comes cheaper. Like "more collectible", "less collectible" also has its position in the C&R N-dimentional cubicle and it has its virtue.

[PhilOhio]

Ed,

You're one of these guys who has a perfectly reasonable, balanced view on this question of originality and value. ...as do most on this board. But we all know that there are people who carry things a bit too far. And my gut feeling is that these tend to be those whose knowledge on the subject is limited, and they tend to adopt the views of others as gospel, without thinking it through.

Roadkill,

Sure its value is now more; a craftsman has added value...a lot.

Jasta2/Bill,

You also have this balanced, realistic view. ...which just means we have to evaluate each one on its unique merits. My problem is with people who feel compelled to put everything into either a "+" or "-" cubbyhole. It's good or no good; either a low value shooter or a collectible. There are many shades of gray, and that is reflected in a broad range of value.

I've been encouraged recently by how many of you have commented on the idea that one or two mismatched numbers on minor parts do not significantly detract from the value of a fine collectible Luger. As the years pass, I think more and more collectors will come to look at it that way. ...or else their collections will be very small.

Lew 1,

You're another one of these guys who, like me, have a more flexible view of what's nice and what we'd like to add to our collections. And there are enough of us out there that the value of these middle-ground guns stays well above the "shooter" level.

I guess I'd have to say I've hardly ever met an old, well made, quality gun I didn't like. Which, I guess, explains why I have six of the old low value Savage/Stevens 520 series shotguns (another brilliant John Browning design) which seem to interest nobody else. It's probably something Rosie O'Donnell's girlfriend could understand.

[kidvett]

Bill,

Interesting topic you started. I'll jump in as I'm into Corvettes longer than I'm into Lugers....

In comparison of the 2 (Lugers vs Corvettes) I believe that a main difference in the whole hobby picture would be that the Vette will possibly be driven as to ``who would shoot a collectible Luger`` ?? This could be influencing the whole issue...

I would compare a fine collectible Luger, I'd say a 1906 Navy 95% with matching mag, to a 65 Fuelie Convt w/ 20K miles. Very few would shoot that pistol & this car wouldnt be driven much (trailer queen...) In both cases the risk of breakage, ruining the value, in imperative...As with those ``biggies`` investment is part of the whole perspective...Examples around here: a fellow has a 70 LT-1 w/ 20K miles, goes to local shows only...I had a few high grade collectible Lugers, never shot any of them as I have shooters...

So I guess on the high end items it's similar....What could mix things up are the average-mid pieces...A nice all matching Luger 80% and an all original Vette showing it's age....In both cases they can be restored but which one will likely hold it's value more ?? Again I believe the actual value is a big part of it....Availability / rarity is also to be considered. Why undergo the restoration of an 80% Luger when you can upgrade it...Upgrade from an original 69 L88 ?? I dont think so....

Being an NCRS member & going to the Carlisle Show annually, I've seen lots of interesting (& not so interesting) stuff happening with Corvettes...Fakery, boosting, false documents, you name it...(yes I know it happens too with Lugers)...all done for profit !! And in the car hobby, most people going for the big certifications (BG, Top Flight, Duntov, Bowtie, etc) do it to increase the value before selling...How many use a Top Flight car as a week end driver ?? Others undergo the ``Top Flight road`` as a personnal acomplishment...This we cannot do with Lugers....

I have not seen restored Lugers going on par with originals. Few rare ones would be worth it but even then I'm unsure their value would be up to the same piece in 80%+ original condition. And I dont have the explanation why restored Vettes fetch more in some cases...

I agree with those who mentionned that a collectible Luger will still be collectible even if a small part (ex. axle pin) isnt matching....

Sorry if I jumped in this tread to mainly talk about Corvettes. The comparison can be interesting as they both are Collectibles...

Lastly, I drive an 82 ``Survivor`` & am undergoing the ``Top Flight Road`` with my 72 LT-1 Convt...

[FNorm]

And yet... I have more in this than I have in lugers...so far. It's an enjoyable driver!

[fire for effect]

Triumph Tr4A ???

[FNorm]

1964 TR-4. Total frame-off reconstruction. Four years of my life and more $$$ than I'll admit to. But then I'm single with no kids.....

FN

[suum cuique]

FNorm,
I love your wheels!
Reminds me a littlebit.....hm, my 1979 Caprice Classic I had years ago

[FNorm]

summ?
Have you checked. There's a sticky somewhere here about magazines. Who has what, and what they're looking for.

I still remember my 1967 Mustang....

FN

[suum cuique]

Originally Posted by FNorm

summ?
Have you checked. There's a sticky somewhere here about magazines. Who has what, and what they're looking for.

I still remember my 1967 Mustang....

FN

FN,
thanks. I have already checked all the listings a while ago but did not find the correct magazine for my luger. But I still hope I'll find it some day...
Andy

[alvin]

God! Fancy on cars? Those are big money burners.

====

Return to Lugers.... current supply is bigger than demand on the market (true in general, except some high-end rare variations). If the trend continues, we will get better price next month, or next year. When price drops, jumping in at "deflation" moment is not easier because I feel "tommorrow's price will be better".... no matter that's true or not. Probably not..... I heard those bailout money is currently sleeping in banks' vaults. They won't stay there forever. God knows when that Monster will be released.