Shooting C-96 + Thompson Semi-Auto

alanint · 09-29-2009, 03:45 PM

My sources state that the model of 1927 were actually Model 1921s, where the receivers were ground down to replace "Model of 1921 Submachinegun" with "Model of 1927 Semi Auto Carbine" and the "Auto" was removed from the frame. Both the upper and lower receivers remain the same as the Model of 1921 and can be easely converted back to FA. They are therefore considered to be SMGs by the ATF

This would indicate that these were Colt made guns originally, not Auto Ordnance.

Auto-Ordnance in West Hurley, NY made a semi starting in the 1980s, which are designated 1927A1s. These are purpose built as semis and cannot easely be converted to FA.

automan1 · 09-29-2009, 05:06 PM

Colt manufactured 1921 Thompson's for Auto-Ordnance N.Y. and not West Hurley N.Y.

Bill

alanint · 09-29-2009, 10:36 PM

You are correct that Colt made the guns for the original Auto Ordnance Corporation, but the model designation was only
"1927"
There were NO 1927A or 1927AC models, as the "A" stands for "Automatic" and the "AC" stands for "Automatic, Compensated"- Neither which applies to the original, 1927 model.

automan1 · 09-29-2009, 11:32 PM

Doug,

Technically you are correct.

Also for ordering from their brochure page 14 they are listed as 1927A & 1927AC (Cutts Compensator) Thompson Automatic Carbine Semi-Automatic (Single shot) Action Only with one Type XX 20 round magazine.

Bill

alanint · 09-30-2009, 01:33 PM

Well, you are right!
I looked into the old catalog and contrary to what most collectors call these guns today, they were referred to as the model 1927A and 1927AC.
Go figure!

PhilOhio · 09-30-2009, 03:40 PM

Alanint has it all correrct. The original autos just had the markings changed and a few internal parts swapped out. I've handled a couple. They are extremely rare and would run in at least the $40K to $50K range right now, I believe. A standard 1921 Colt, by comparison, would typically go for a minimum of $25K to around 40 - 45. Wartime AOC or Savage Thompsons are $18K to maybe $26K.

The current semis from Kahr would sell for $700 to $800 used; new around $1500. Quality can in no way be compared to the real ones, but they look sorta the same...except side by side. They are fun guns when they work. And Paul Krogh of Delta, Colorado, can turn one into a functional and reliable work of art...just beautiful...for a reasonable price. But you may have to wait up to two years. For a guy who is serious about his Thompson, and lives in a state where full auto is impossible, "PK" and his 1927A1 rehab magic is the only way to go. Sorry, there is no website. Word of mouth is all this craftsman needs.

All the guns marked 1927A1, etc., are the recent Kahr flavor, although a few may have been made by Numrichs earlier. All of them are marked "Auto Ordnance", although the real company has not been around for over 60 years. The late George Numrich just began using the trademark around the 1960s; nobody objected because the original company and most of its people were dead; he later registered it in New York; his partner/successor Ira Trast sold it to Kahr; their lawyers misunderstand and think there was a "succession" of the direct AOC lineage, and Kahr ads pontificate about the unbroken tradition and heritage, etc. Some self proclaimed "authorities" in Thompson land, one or two in particular, also misunderstand and argue vehemently, but never have any luck supporting their bogus "unbroken succession" claims with documentation, beyond what they make up from whole cloth and hot air. The perpetual debate is interesting, and many thousands of words have been written and argued about it. It may fatten the bank accounts of generations of lawyers, and will certainly entertain generations of gray haired Thompson collectors with nothing better to argue about.

Thank heaven, we have few such uncertainties about Lugers, since the Germans documented everything to death and little was left to chance.

09-29-2009, 11:32 PM	#4
automan1 RIP Join Date: May 2009 Location: PA - USA Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Doug, Technically you are correct. Also for ordering from their brochure page 14 they are listed as 1927A & 1927AC (Cutts Compensator) Thompson Automatic Carbine Semi-Automatic (Single shot) Action Only with one Type XX 20 round magazine. Bill Last edited by automan1; 09-30-2009 at 12:45 AM.

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09-29-2009, 03:45 PM	#1
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	My sources state that the model of 1927 were actually Model 1921s, where the receivers were ground down to replace "Model of 1921 Submachinegun" with "Model of 1927 Semi Auto Carbine" and the "Auto" was removed from the frame. Both the upper and lower receivers remain the same as the Model of 1921 and can be easely converted back to FA. They are therefore considered to be SMGs by the ATF This would indicate that these were Colt made guns originally, not Auto Ordnance. Auto-Ordnance in West Hurley, NY made a semi starting in the 1980s, which are designated 1927A1s. These are purpose built as semis and cannot easely be converted to FA.

09-29-2009, 05:06 PM	#2
automan1 RIP Join Date: May 2009 Location: PA - USA Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Colt manufactured 1921 Thompson's for Auto-Ordnance N.Y. and not West Hurley N.Y. Bill

09-29-2009, 10:36 PM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	You are correct that Colt made the guns for the original Auto Ordnance Corporation, but the model designation was only "1927" There were NO 1927A or 1927AC models, as the "A" stands for "Automatic" and the "AC" stands for "Automatic, Compensated"- Neither which applies to the original, 1927 model.

09-30-2009, 01:33 PM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Well, you are right! I looked into the old catalog and contrary to what most collectors call these guns today, they were referred to as the model 1927A and 1927AC. Go figure!

09-30-2009, 03:40 PM	#6
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Alanint has it all correrct. The original autos just had the markings changed and a few internal parts swapped out. I've handled a couple. They are extremely rare and would run in at least the $40K to $50K range right now, I believe. A standard 1921 Colt, by comparison, would typically go for a minimum of $25K to around 40 - 45. Wartime AOC or Savage Thompsons are $18K to maybe $26K. The current semis from Kahr would sell for $700 to $800 used; new around $1500. Quality can in no way be compared to the real ones, but they look sorta the same...except side by side. They are fun guns when they work. And Paul Krogh of Delta, Colorado, can turn one into a functional and reliable work of art...just beautiful...for a reasonable price. But you may have to wait up to two years. For a guy who is serious about his Thompson, and lives in a state where full auto is impossible, "PK" and his 1927A1 rehab magic is the only way to go. Sorry, there is no website. Word of mouth is all this craftsman needs. All the guns marked 1927A1, etc., are the recent Kahr flavor, although a few may have been made by Numrichs earlier. All of them are marked "Auto Ordnance", although the real company has not been around for over 60 years. The late George Numrich just began using the trademark around the 1960s; nobody objected because the original company and most of its people were dead; he later registered it in New York; his partner/successor Ira Trast sold it to Kahr; their lawyers misunderstand and think there was a "succession" of the direct AOC lineage, and Kahr ads pontificate about the unbroken tradition and heritage, etc. Some self proclaimed "authorities" in Thompson land, one or two in particular, also misunderstand and argue vehemently, but never have any luck supporting their bogus "unbroken succession" claims with documentation, beyond what they make up from whole cloth and hot air. The perpetual debate is interesting, and many thousands of words have been written and argued about it. It may fatten the bank accounts of generations of lawyers, and will certainly entertain generations of gray haired Thompson collectors with nothing better to argue about. Thank heaven, we have few such uncertainties about Lugers, since the Germans documented everything to death and little was left to chance.