Removing dip

Drachenstein · 09-16-2009, 07:33 AM

I've read quite a few posts both here and on the P38 side of house. I make jewelry (all pre-1900), and do restoration and replication work for museums. I have also done work for reenactors from celtic to WWII. Anyway often times when dealing with an artifact we'll put it in a vibratory tumbler filled with bird seed or charged walnut (depending on the integrity of the piece) in order to clean it to the point of inspection or replication. It's easy to control the abrasion through the type of media used. It also does it evenly or uniformly, unlike any wheel that will leave traces. Has anyone tried this process yet?

Edward Tinker · 09-16-2009, 09:21 AM

I would think it'd clean the heck out of it.

how would you control the amount of taking off the bluing?

I do think the dip is applied and "on top" of the bluing, so this might work fine...

??

Ed

John Sabato · 09-16-2009, 12:52 PM

I can't agree that this is a good procedure on collector grade weapons... abrasion is abrasion. Just because it won't leave swirl marks like a wheel, doesn't mean it would be good for the original finish.

I believe that the generally accepted way to remove the dip blue is to use appropriate solvent and gently rub using fine bronze wool ...

Orv Riechert over on our "sister" P.38 forum should be an expert on dip blue removal... I would ask there for the best methods.

Drachenstein · 09-16-2009, 06:36 PM

When we work Roman jewelry we use bird seed. The oil in it lubricates it and it's soft enouph not to harm even cystalized silver, it will remove the tarnish and oxidation. I don't know if it would work on the dip though. I guess the trick would be to get a piece that has that dip on it and run it checking every 10 minutes or so. I have read Orv's articles and have tried it using WD40 and even GunBrite. The outcome just wasn't uniform though. The trick would be to find the line between the durability of the dip and the durability of the blue. From my reading the blue should be much more durable than the dip. Would there also be a noticable difference between the russian dip and the vopo gunk?

Abrasion is abrasion, however there are varying degrees of it and it can be controled to an extent. Even a babies cotton diaper is an abrasive. I would never advocate anything but standard cleaning on a collector grade weapon. I consider bronze wool as too abrasive for what is considered collector grade. I am posing this question in the restoration/refinishing section as I consider if it has that black gunk all over it, it's not really collectors grade, is it? I quess the trick would be to find a dipped mismatch, or a piece from one to give try it.

MarkC · 09-17-2009, 03:45 PM

You may just want to put the "dipped" gun in the ultrasonic cleaner for an extended period of time and wipe the excess "brown" off of the blue.

However, "dip" sticks to bear metal so that is another issue.

Drachenstein · 09-17-2009, 08:21 PM

Really? What type solution do you have in the ultrasonic cleaner? It has never even occured to me to use the ultrasonic cleaner.

I just cleaned up a T33 packed in grease with toothe brush, pipe cleaners and quetips; the ultrasonic would have made short work of it. I have a 5 quart Alpha in the studio.
Louisville gun show is coming up, I'll see if I can pick up a dipped P38 to try it on. I see the problem; you don't know what's under the dip until you remove it. Though even in the ultrasonic cleaned the dip would remain on the strawed parts wouldn't it?

MarkC · 09-17-2009, 09:36 PM

I use regular ultrasonic gun cleaner from Brownells and make the solution a little stronger and leave it in a little longer. The "brown dip" gets a little loose and can be wiped off with some good gun cleaning solution on a cotton patch. Then the rinse in water and dry with compressed air and then the ultrasonic gun lube.

You must completely dissassemble the entire gun to the smallest part and pin and just do one pistol to get best results. The "dip" will still stick to areas of wear under the dip on the original finish.

Unless the solution is super hot for cosmoline, it will just find its way into every nook on a gun. I usually get most of the cosmoline off the gun first then make up a new solution with super hot water to get rid of the rest in the ultrasonic cleaner.

Then you will have the "ring around" the stainless tub with a bath line of cosmoline where the fluid level was .... been doing this for 10 years with the ultrasonics!

Mark

PhilOhio · 09-21-2009, 01:13 PM

I've become quite a convert to the use of a bead blasting cabinet, to prepare any firearm part for refinishing and to remove corrosion or blemishes of any kind.

A fine functional blast cabinet is available from Harbor Freight for around $100. Attach it to any air compressor.

There are many grades of blasting abrasive available, both glass beads and all sorts of silicon (sand) types. Some of this media is extremely gentle and non-destructive.

You are watching the process happen through a glass window in a lighted chamber. You control the air pressure and the amount of blasting, directed by your hands. When you have what you want, the minimum, you stop. Right there.

You can heavily blast one bad area and very lightly cover a relatively good area on the same piece. You are watching the transformation in real time.

You will probably not need to polish at all, depending on what type of surface smoothness you want.

By varying the blast media, the pressure, and the time spent blasting in one spot, you can remove severe and deep defects.

Fine, faint stampings, such as the shallow ones Colt often uses, are not worn away. It's great on an old Woodsman, for example.

There are no swirl marks or rounded edges, or shallow depressions created. You can get a matte finish or a smooth one, depending upon media used and how aggressive you are. Matte is great for parkerizing.

Seriously, guys, if you have not tried this, and if you have a workshop and an air compressor, give it a try...on some metal scraps. You will be quickly converted.

One thing, be sure to thoroughly wash off any traces of media before applying final finish. But this really produces clean metal.

Drachenstein · 09-21-2009, 10:36 PM

Actually, I think the ultrasonic would be the gentlest for removing the dip followed by the birdseed. The trick to the birdseed is it's a very soft medium of various dimensions and self lubricating. To totally remove the blue, chemically is definately the best way. Some of the stuff I work on the chemicals would destroy.

MarkC · 09-21-2009, 11:10 PM

All due respect but blasting or rubbing a guns finish with abrasive material is NOT the way to go ...

Think tiny "scrubbing bubbles" ... not abrasive!

0000 steel wool is bad idea for example, rub too hard or too much with the abrasives and you have cold steel, not original blue!

jamese · 09-23-2009, 09:54 AM

Phil,
what type of media works best ?
I have tried the bead blasting before, but have never tried the walnut shells ?

Jim

suum cuique · 09-23-2009, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drachenstein

I've read quite a few posts both here and on the P38 side of house. I make jewelry (all pre-1900), and do restoration and replication work for museums. I have also done work for reenactors from celtic to WWII. Anyway often times when dealing with an artifact we'll put it in a vibratory tumbler filled with bird seed or charged walnut (depending on the integrity of the piece) in order to clean it to the point of inspection or replication. It's easy to control the abrasion through the type of media used. It also does it evenly or uniformly, unlike any wheel that will leave traces. Has anyone tried this process yet?

Do you think a tumbler with walnut stuff, which is used to polishing cartridge-shells, could be used for polishing gun parts as well?

suum cuique · 09-23-2009, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamese

Phil,
what type of media works best ?
I have tried the bead blasting before, but have never tried the walnut shells ?

Jim

Phil,
a friend of mine uses walnut shells for polishing ammo shells before reloading since years with a great result.
ANdy

PhilOhio · 09-23-2009, 11:13 AM

Jim, Andy,

I have not tried a lot of different types of media. When I find one that seems to work well and not be destructive, I stay with that. A fine grade of glass beads is least invasive. You can get a finish that is smooth enough that there is no need to polish it before bluing.

I like parkerizing, so often I use a coarser grade of flint abrasive to give me a uniform slight matte finish which takes the park well and looks great.

Walnut shells would be great, if they can be ground so that they would feed through a blasting gun. I don't know if such a thing is offered, but I suspect it could not be re-used much before breaking down.

Many years ago I read that in the early 1900s, when they were making the LP08s, the Germans tumbled all those parts in a heated tumbling drum containing moistened ground walnut shells. This also gave the parts their unusual and durable brownish black finish. Mine is just about mint. Does anybody else know about this? I've thought of trying it, just for fun.

That juice in the walnut shells is really powerful stuff, and with the addition of heat and long tumbling time, it seems like something that might work. There are probably also some mild acids in the chemical makeup.

Drachenstein · 09-25-2009, 09:05 AM

I have a tumbler full of walnut shell. It can be much more progressive then the seed, if charged. I'm using it right now to restore some silver damaged by Katrina. The level of abrasion depends what you charge your walnut with, or if it's not charged at all. Currently mine is charged with fine rouge. Corn cob is another like medium, is much cheaper, and holds a charge just as well. My concern would be you got the dip off, now you need to remove the residual rouge. Can you say ultrasonic? Now we're back where Mark left off.

Frank

BTW don't use the walnut for jewelers for cleaning brass casings, most are pre charge with rouge and the residual, unless removed, will affect the reloaded rounds. Make sure the walnut states uncharged.

09-16-2009, 07:33 AM	#1
Drachenstein User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Elizabethtown, KY Posts: 78 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Removing dip I've read quite a few posts both here and on the P38 side of house. I make jewelry (all pre-1900), and do restoration and replication work for museums. I have also done work for reenactors from celtic to WWII. Anyway often times when dealing with an artifact we'll put it in a vibratory tumbler filled with bird seed or charged walnut (depending on the integrity of the piece) in order to clean it to the point of inspection or replication. It's easy to control the abrasion through the type of media used. It also does it evenly or uniformly, unlike any wheel that will leave traces. Has anyone tried this process yet?

09-16-2009, 09:21 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I would think it'd clean the heck out of it. how would you control the amount of taking off the bluing? I do think the dip is applied and "on top" of the bluing, so this might work fine... ?? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-16-2009, 12:52 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I can't agree that this is a good procedure on collector grade weapons... abrasion is abrasion. Just because it won't leave swirl marks like a wheel, doesn't mean it would be good for the original finish. I believe that the generally accepted way to remove the dip blue is to use appropriate solvent and gently rub using fine bronze wool ... Orv Riechert over on our "sister" P.38 forum should be an expert on dip blue removal... I would ask there for the best methods. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-23-2009, 09:54 AM	#11
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 792 Thanks: 0 Thanked 86 Times in 36 Posts	Phil, what type of media works best ? I have tried the bead blasting before, but have never tried the walnut shells ? Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

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09-16-2009, 06:36 PM	#4
Drachenstein User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Elizabethtown, KY Posts: 78 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	When we work Roman jewelry we use bird seed. The oil in it lubricates it and it's soft enouph not to harm even cystalized silver, it will remove the tarnish and oxidation. I don't know if it would work on the dip though. I guess the trick would be to get a piece that has that dip on it and run it checking every 10 minutes or so. I have read Orv's articles and have tried it using WD40 and even GunBrite. The outcome just wasn't uniform though. The trick would be to find the line between the durability of the dip and the durability of the blue. From my reading the blue should be much more durable than the dip. Would there also be a noticable difference between the russian dip and the vopo gunk? Abrasion is abrasion, however there are varying degrees of it and it can be controled to an extent. Even a babies cotton diaper is an abrasive. I would never advocate anything but standard cleaning on a collector grade weapon. I consider bronze wool as too abrasive for what is considered collector grade. I am posing this question in the restoration/refinishing section as I consider if it has that black gunk all over it, it's not really collectors grade, is it? I quess the trick would be to find a dipped mismatch, or a piece from one to give try it.

09-17-2009, 03:45 PM	#5
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	You may just want to put the "dipped" gun in the ultrasonic cleaner for an extended period of time and wipe the excess "brown" off of the blue. However, "dip" sticks to bear metal so that is another issue.

09-17-2009, 08:21 PM	#6
Drachenstein User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Elizabethtown, KY Posts: 78 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Really? What type solution do you have in the ultrasonic cleaner? It has never even occured to me to use the ultrasonic cleaner. I just cleaned up a T33 packed in grease with toothe brush, pipe cleaners and quetips; the ultrasonic would have made short work of it. I have a 5 quart Alpha in the studio. Louisville gun show is coming up, I'll see if I can pick up a dipped P38 to try it on. I see the problem; you don't know what's under the dip until you remove it. Though even in the ultrasonic cleaned the dip would remain on the strawed parts wouldn't it?

09-17-2009, 09:36 PM	#7
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	I use regular ultrasonic gun cleaner from Brownells and make the solution a little stronger and leave it in a little longer. The "brown dip" gets a little loose and can be wiped off with some good gun cleaning solution on a cotton patch. Then the rinse in water and dry with compressed air and then the ultrasonic gun lube. You must completely dissassemble the entire gun to the smallest part and pin and just do one pistol to get best results. The "dip" will still stick to areas of wear under the dip on the original finish. Unless the solution is super hot for cosmoline, it will just find its way into every nook on a gun. I usually get most of the cosmoline off the gun first then make up a new solution with super hot water to get rid of the rest in the ultrasonic cleaner. Then you will have the "ring around" the stainless tub with a bath line of cosmoline where the fluid level was .... been doing this for 10 years with the ultrasonics! Mark

09-21-2009, 01:13 PM	#8
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	I've become quite a convert to the use of a bead blasting cabinet, to prepare any firearm part for refinishing and to remove corrosion or blemishes of any kind. A fine functional blast cabinet is available from Harbor Freight for around $100. Attach it to any air compressor. There are many grades of blasting abrasive available, both glass beads and all sorts of silicon (sand) types. Some of this media is extremely gentle and non-destructive. You are watching the process happen through a glass window in a lighted chamber. You control the air pressure and the amount of blasting, directed by your hands. When you have what you want, the minimum, you stop. Right there. You can heavily blast one bad area and very lightly cover a relatively good area on the same piece. You are watching the transformation in real time. You will probably not need to polish at all, depending on what type of surface smoothness you want. By varying the blast media, the pressure, and the time spent blasting in one spot, you can remove severe and deep defects. Fine, faint stampings, such as the shallow ones Colt often uses, are not worn away. It's great on an old Woodsman, for example. There are no swirl marks or rounded edges, or shallow depressions created. You can get a matte finish or a smooth one, depending upon media used and how aggressive you are. Matte is great for parkerizing. Seriously, guys, if you have not tried this, and if you have a workshop and an air compressor, give it a try...on some metal scraps. You will be quickly converted. One thing, be sure to thoroughly wash off any traces of media before applying final finish. But this really produces clean metal.

09-21-2009, 10:36 PM	#9
Drachenstein User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Elizabethtown, KY Posts: 78 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Actually, I think the ultrasonic would be the gentlest for removing the dip followed by the birdseed. The trick to the birdseed is it's a very soft medium of various dimensions and self lubricating. To totally remove the blue, chemically is definately the best way. Some of the stuff I work on the chemicals would destroy.

09-21-2009, 11:10 PM	#10
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	All due respect but blasting or rubbing a guns finish with abrasive material is NOT the way to go ... Think tiny "scrubbing bubbles" ... not abrasive! 0000 steel wool is bad idea for example, rub too hard or too much with the abrasives and you have cold steel, not original blue!

09-23-2009, 11:13 AM	#14
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Jim, Andy, I have not tried a lot of different types of media. When I find one that seems to work well and not be destructive, I stay with that. A fine grade of glass beads is least invasive. You can get a finish that is smooth enough that there is no need to polish it before bluing. I like parkerizing, so often I use a coarser grade of flint abrasive to give me a uniform slight matte finish which takes the park well and looks great. Walnut shells would be great, if they can be ground so that they would feed through a blasting gun. I don't know if such a thing is offered, but I suspect it could not be re-used much before breaking down. Many years ago I read that in the early 1900s, when they were making the LP08s, the Germans tumbled all those parts in a heated tumbling drum containing moistened ground walnut shells. This also gave the parts their unusual and durable brownish black finish. Mine is just about mint. Does anybody else know about this? I've thought of trying it, just for fun. That juice in the walnut shells is really powerful stuff, and with the addition of heat and long tumbling time, it seems like something that might work. There are probably also some mild acids in the chemical makeup.

09-25-2009, 09:05 AM	#15
Drachenstein User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Elizabethtown, KY Posts: 78 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have a tumbler full of walnut shell. It can be much more progressive then the seed, if charged. I'm using it right now to restore some silver damaged by Katrina. The level of abrasion depends what you charge your walnut with, or if it's not charged at all. Currently mine is charged with fine rouge. Corn cob is another like medium, is much cheaper, and holds a charge just as well. My concern would be you got the dip off, now you need to remove the residual rouge. Can you say ultrasonic? Now we're back where Mark left off. Frank BTW don't use the walnut for jewelers for cleaning brass casings, most are pre charge with rouge and the residual, unless removed, will affect the reloaded rounds. Make sure the walnut states uncharged.