Simson Rework with "DeathHead"

[CHARLESL]

I recently had the opportunity to purchase this Luger from a gentleman who said he obtained it a number of years ago. I have read a number of threads on this forum and fully understand that the "Deathhead" is a highly faked stamp . I am not a expert by any means and since I now own the Pistol would like some opinions from people that are much more knowledgeable about these era pistols. Any thoughts both positive and negative would be greatly appreciated. I fully understand that this most likely is not an original pistol.
I have two questions myself that someone may shed some light on.
The gentlemen said that this was a simson Rework [which is very evident by the simson proof marks] My question is this. When simson reworked a pistol would they have left the Deathhead insignia on the pistol or has this insignia been put on after the rework?? Also I was told that most of the deathheads were stamped on 1917 or 1918 Lugers. Is this true or could other dates be seen . Another thing that concerned me is that the pistol looks as if may have been restored or just reblued which when I disassembled the pistol the inner portions of the frame were not blued as you would see if it was done later on by dipping . I am looking forward for any opinions about the pistol. I had not had any intentions of purchasing a Deathhead but if the owner wants to sell it for a reasonable price and the Luger gave some impression of being authenic but i am a neophyte and my opinons are very limited. I will attempt to attach pictures.

Thank you for your time and consideration


Chuck Lobrano

[Lugerdoc]

The horizonal C/N proofing on the left frame and receiver, would indicate a Weimar era Kreighoff rework to me. I agree that the TK marking looks a bit strange. Hard to tell for sure. TH

[Edward Tinker]

Chuck, where else but on the barrel is an eagle 6?

On the barrel makes sense to me; however that would likely have been a mid 1920's rework (although they were reworking officially in 1922 if I remember right.

Is there a deathhead on the barrel or is that a proof eagle?

If a deathhead, then I believe it fake... If not,then I see no reason they wouldn't leave it on; deathheads are from the freicorps generally and early 1919-1923 or so from what I have been reading recently...

It looks refinished to me, but the barrel, I would expect it to be a another color...


Ed

PS: You saw folks are looking for you on the raflfe page?

[CHARLESL]

Thanks Tom and Ed

The only place the deathhead is on the pistol is the chamber above the date. The stamping on the barrel is the eagle with the 6 underneath that the fellow said that it was Simson.
I did not know what the other stamp marks were on the left side of the frame were but I will do some more reading
about Kreighoff reworks . Obviously the luger is a hodgepodge of different marks. It certainly makes sense that if the deathhead is not authenic that they would have reblued it.

Thanks very much for your opinions for I did think that it may not be correct when I bought it but it looked like a nice matching Luger that had been taken care of and there was always a chance that it may be something interesting

Ed How do I get on the Raffle page .It may be the first time in my life that I have ever won anything.

Also it is obvious that I also always "buy high " and if I ever sell anything I always "Sell Low"

Thanks
Chuck Lobrano

[Ron Wood]

Tom and Ed,

The left frame and receiver marks are not Crown/N, they are Eagle/6. Chuck sent me photos of this gun and I have been terribly remiss in not replying to him before this...a long story not necessarily needed here. I have been studying the photos in some detail.

This gun is awash with interesting stuff. In addition to the Eagle/6 marks, there is a Technical Police "proof" on the right side of the barrel and that is above what appears to be an Erfurt power proof eagle. The magazine base appears to have a DWM style eagle marking.

A Simson re-work would not necessarily remove the deathhead since that would also alter the appearance of the date stamp.

The deathhead mark on the receiver looks similar to some other "genuine?" DH marks that I have seen, but I do not recall seeing any where the lazy "S" touches the skull.

Deathhead Lugers are always an enigma and it is very difficult to positively identify if one is "correct" or not. It is a crap shoot and it pretty much boils down to if there is not an excessive premium added to the price for the DH marking, it fits reasonably in your budget and you are happy with it, enjoy it

[alvin]

Originally Posted by CHARLESL

Also it is obvious that I also always "buy high " and if I ever sell anything I always "Sell Low"

The grip looks so new. If in doubt, test firing 50 rounds from it. A government reworked gun should work. Modern rework has one feature: people take care of appearance details cannot take care of function, and people take care of function cannot take care of appearance details. I believe there are exceptions, but it will be a good test.

[Don M]

I have become convinced that the PTV (Polizeischule für Technik und Verkehr) reworked Lugers after its creation in 1927 using barrels and other components purchased from Simson and bearing Simson E/6 or E/33 acceptance stamps. This might explain the PTV/E and E/6 barrel markings but the E/6 receiver and frame stamps suggest there is more to the story.

[CHARLESL]

Thanks all

I went back to the original pistol and under a magnifing glass

Like Ron said the two stamps on the left receiver and frame

are eagle over 6 . There is also one other eagle over 6 on the barrel that can barely be seen on picture number one if looking down on the deathhead is at 10 oclock. I went to the weimer and early nazi luger book by Still and on page 17 found the eagle over 6 Simson proof marks . I also found another stamp mark that Mr Still called a Simson Army test Proof. On page 70 of the book I found the pictures of that proof mark on various guns on that page and following pages . It is almost identical to the mark on the right side of the barrel of the gun I bought .
If any body can look at that proofmark again and see if they agree it would be helpful. Thanks for stimulating me to look these marks up. I also looked at the mark that was a Police Technical . I could not find it anywhere in any book that i possess so Ron if you could tell me more about were and why it was used I would appreciate it. Anyhow thanks again and anyother comments are greatly appreciated

Thanks
Chuck Lobrano

[Don M]

Chuck, from what I can see in your photo, the mark on the right side of the barrel consisting of PTV over an eagle is the proof stamp of the Berlin Police Armory which was a branch of the Polizeischule für Technik und Verkehr. These are not independent stamps but were used together. This proof was used to indicate rework by the Berlin armory from about 1928 to 1935. In 1935, the PTV was renamed Technische Polizeischule and the proof stamp was changed to TP over an eagle. The attachment shows both proofs. Over time, there were minor variations in this mark.

[Ron Wood]

Don has covered well the PTV stamps. Ed’s observation that “deathheads are from the freicorps generally and early 1919-1923 or so from what I have been reading recently” is probably pretty much on target.

To date there is no concrete link between the deathhead marking on Lugers and any specific organization. The fact that the marking is legitimate (although very frequently faked) is fairly well established. It has been attributed to the early Leib Hussar units (a theory that originally appealed to me…but pretty much ruled out since there is a 1st Lieb Hussar marked Luger that is not DH marked). It has also been associated with prison camp guards, but the link, I feel, is pretty tenuous.

My favorite theory, which follows Ed’s comment, is that the marking probably was adopted by a Freikorps Flammenwerfer (flamethrower) unit. The lazy “S” marking over the skull is thought to represent the pattern of the sweep of a flamethrower. There is absolutely no provenance to this assertion (as there is fundamentally no foundation for any other theory regarding the origin of this marking) but I submit for your consideration the following photo taken during the Kapp Putsch in 1920 Berlin. By no means conclusive, but food for thought.

[CHARLESL]

Thanks for all of the information that was received .
It is obvious that the pistol has numerous interesting
proof markings that I would have never been able
on my own to have figured out. I don't know if the whole
story will ever be known. I do have some question that someone might be able to answer.
1. Did Simson Reworks maintain the deathheads since most were used
by the Freicorps during the early 20ties. How did Simson obtain these weapons
to rework them if they were in "private hands"
2. After the Berlin Amory obtained the pistols or parts did they totally restore the pistols and then put their proof marks on the weapons or did they have Simson apply the proofmarks 3. Since this pistol has deathhead the only two ways that it could have been placed is either during WW1 or by a very competent "restorer forger"in the modern era. there is No evidence that either Simson or the Berlin Armory would have stamped this? Being a neophyte in collecting the pistols this has been a great educational experience
but I am not that naive to think this may not have been a well done restoration

Also thanks Mr Maus I have ordered you book from Simpson and look forward to reading it

Thanks
Chuck Lobrano

[Don M]

Chuck,

I will attempt to answer some of your questions but I think it is important to distinguish between proof marks and acceptance marks. Proof marks indicate the weapon has passed a firing test. Acceptance marks on parts indicate the part or assembly has passed government inspection for dimensions, hardness, finish, etc. Someone may correct me on this but I believe the only proof marks on your gun are (1) the Imperial eagle at the right end of the markings on the right side of the receiver and (2) the PTV/E on the barrel. The rest of the stamps are either Imperial acceptances (right side receiver) or Simson acceptances.

Simson was established by the Inter-Allied Military Control Commission in the early 20s as the sole facility for major reworks and repairs of military and police Lugers. Weapons were sent to them by the military and police authorities. If your TK is authentic and if Simson reworked it, it was probably sent to them by the police that had absorbed a Freikorps unit along with its weapons.

The Berlin armory was established in late 1927 and probably began reworking Lugers in 1928. By that time the Control Commission had been disbanded and things loosened up. The armory used components purchased from Simson as well as others. A variety of acceptance stamps are found on replacement barrels. I don't think there was a fixed "rework" plan for every pistol. It probably depended on what each needed. In many cases, it may have simply been a barrel replacement. However, that being a major repair, the gun would have been proof fired by the PTV.

Neither Simson nor the Berlin armory would have applied the TK stamp.

The E/6 and PTV/E stamps on the barrel are quite consistent with rebarraling by the PTV. However, the E/6s on the left side of the receiver and left frame are puzzling. The only reasonable explanation I can conjure up is that the gun was reworked by Simpson and then sent to the PTV for proof testing sometime between 1928 and 1935. The barrel may have been installed by either Simson or the PTV. This is pure conjecture, however.

I hope you enjoy the book.

[sheepherder]

Question about the Deathhead: Is it sometimes found off-center, as on Chuck's Luger???

Seems as if they had the tooling to engrave it, they also could have centered it...they are meticulous...

[CHARLESL]

Hello Postino

found your message . I think we already know the answer . this Tk has been
placed by a imposter Ha Ha Joke was on me. An expensive one [$2600] But a joke
no less
Thanks for asking
Chuck

[Don M]

Chuck,

I am wondering what makes you certain that it is a fake.