Trying to find info on new luger purchase - Page 2

sheepherder · 03-26-2009, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtu2179

Anybody know a good source of 7.65 brass?

At the risk of starting a flame war...For my 7.63mm Mauser and 7.65mm Lugers, I use new cut-down .223 Remington unprimed brass cases (not 5.56mm Military). Run the cut cases through the 7.65 Luger ("30 Luger" in RCBS) reloading dies to form the bottleneck case.

The .223 Rem is about ~.010" smaller diameter at the base than 30 Luger, but fire-forming with a light load will expand the cases to fit your chamber.

Just my $.02...YMMV...I am not responsible for any blah blah...

G.T. · 03-26-2009, 12:45 AM

Just a quick question... why not the 5.56 mil stuff? All it seems you'd have to do is anneal it?? I'm not a reloader, so I plead ignorance... Best to you, til...lat'r...GT

Chris from Minnesota · 03-26-2009, 01:55 AM

I believe (if not correct me) the 5.56 brass has thicker case walls then .223 Remington same goes for .308 rem. brass and 7.62 NATO brass. .223 rem is not as hot as NATO spec ammo, .223 rem. runs at about 3000 fps where 5.56 NATO runs at about 3250 fps in my AR 15 20" barrel.

You can tell by the head stamp on the case, NATO will have the circle with a cross in it. In a combat situation all NATO country's that run across another country's ammo that find the circle with a cross in it know it's good ammo. Also SAMMI states that firing 5.56mm in a .223 rem. chamber is an unsafe ammunition chamber combination.

My AR 15's love XM193 from Lake City that's box and sold by Federal, good stuff but expensive. I also love the 5.56 brass for reloading for my AR 15's it was plentiful but harder to find now.

Just my .02

sheepherder · 03-26-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris from Minnesota

I believe (if not correct me) the 5.56 brass has thicker case walls then .223 Remington same goes for .308 rem. brass and 7.62 NATO brass.

Chris is correct. I was introduced to this little-publicized fact while making my own 44 Automag cases from .308/7.62 brass...(I had one of the High-Standard 44 Automags w/ both 357 Automag and 44 Automag barrels)...I was getting a lot of case failures while forming, almost all military brass (the others were much-used commercial brass). Also, the military brass had to be neck reamed; the commercial didn't - this was the tipoff. 44 bullets could be seated with no neck reaming in commercial brass cases (after cutting to length).

I would expect the military brass is made with thicker walls intentionally, to lessen the chance of a blowout...while commercially, the manufacturers want to hold costs down as much as possible...

Case wall thickness (*not* neck thickness) only seems to be an issue for those of us concerned with 'cartridge conversion'...

BTW: I am not stating that you won't have to neck ream .223 commercial...only that you may not need to...

Off -topic = I can recall back when only Berdan primed cases were available for the 7.63 Mauser and 7.65 Luger, there were all kinds of ways to remove the spent primers...some really crude...("fill case with water and use a tight fitting dowel to hydraulically eject the primer")...

Disclaimer: I am not an expert on any of this, these are just my observations from practical experience...

Lessee...What was this thread about?...

Steinar · 03-26-2009, 05:03 AM

Speaking of military ammunition..
We (as in the Norwegian Army) has now replaced the regular Nato rounds with "environmental friendly" non-lead core bullets. Let's call them 7.62mmBellona, 9mmBellona and 5.56mmBellona from the organization who pushed trough that lead bullet's should no longer be allowed. (They deserve to be connected to this little story)

There are so many downsides with this new ammunition, I don't know where to start..
-It's a health hazard for those shooting them. I have fired about 100k 7.62Nato rounds over the years, and never had a headache after a day at the range. But one day with 2-300 rounds of this non-lead ammunition, made my head pounding. It is believed to come from the gasses, many experience nausea or headache the following day(s).
-They are loaded 'too hot' and make all of our weapon types less reliable. MG's has blown up, MP5 (the locking plate for these rolls get's beaten up and falls out) and even the trusty A3and Glock some times fail on these. Our new rifle however, the H416 seems to handle the ammunition quite well.
-They wreck the bore, especially on the Glock
-They are far more expensive
-Less precise
But what frustrates me the most, is that without proper testing, they send 300k of this x.xxBellona **** directly down to Afghanistan to be used in combat by our fighting forces. Luckily the guys there decided (as with anything else that is unknown) to test it thoroughly before use. They experienced that several rounds didn't going off, some was too weak to cycle properly and MG's blew up. At least one soldier was injured by this..

btw. This has nothing to do with military ammunition, but lead shotgun ammunition is also prohibited here in Norway, for environmental reasons. I'm a hunter and find this a very ironic. I have wounded so many birds by using steel, that I just don't have the conscience to use it any more. Hunters have been wounded by ricochets and it's a question of time before a shotgun will blow up by the increased pressure.

Sorry if my outburst was somewhat off topic

John Sabato · 04-19-2009, 11:23 PM

You have lots of good reasons to get your money back, but not if it doesn't function with fiocchi ammunition.

They have a reputation for notoriously low powered ammunition. Try reloading the brass with a known medium handload before you give up on the pistol. They will likely function the pistol properly.

dtu2179 · 04-21-2009, 12:05 PM

Thanks John. But, I think I would rather send it back and put that money towards the gun that I really wanted. I had wanted a nazi marked Luger that was decently priced and that I could shoot from time to time. And 9mm. I figured that the ammo was low powered, which was why it wouldnt function right, but I've had enough of this gun. It was sold to me under false pretenses anyway. Any ideas on a nazi marked replacement?

John Sabato · 04-21-2009, 01:51 PM

Put your "wants" in the want to buy forum... you will find dealing with forum members a much more pleasant experience. It won't be long before you find a Luger that meets your requirements.

dtu2179 · 07-23-2009, 10:24 PM

Well hello again everyone. I am in the process of aquiring two Lugers from my uncle.

After having sent the one pictured in this thread back for a full refund. I will post some pictures when I get them. Maybe some of you could help me find out some info on them.

HuntMaster · 07-24-2009, 01:08 AM

Hello Duane,
glad you have resolved the problem. I encountered a similar experience on my 1st Luger purchase.
My Luger wouldn't function correctly either, so with a little help from LugerDoc, I replaced the mainsprig, and now it functions flawlessly!
Maybe you could reacquire the original pistol for a little less money and have a .30 shooter.

dtu2179 · 08-01-2009, 07:13 PM

Well guys, here is one of the new ones. Don't know much about it. It came from my uncle and he said he has had it since the 80s. Cleaned it up today. Its not all matching, but hopfully it will shoot well. It has an interesting inscription on the front of the grip. Any Ideas about value?

dtu2179 · 08-02-2009, 04:37 PM

Sorry about the quality of some of the photos, but something seems to be wrong with my camera.

jamese · 08-03-2009, 10:27 AM

Nice looking gun....the mag has been altered with the checkering on the bottom and it may have been re-blued its hard to tell by the photos

The grip strap marking is very unusual, which makes it interesting:
(Might need some help on this one Geo)

I think it translates as follows
Infanterie-Regiment 1, Maschinengewehr-Kompagnie, 15th Army Korps, waffe Nr. 19

dtu2179 · 08-03-2009, 12:55 PM

Yeah, I know some of the pictures are kinda mot so good. The camera was giving me a fit. After looking it over again, and using the proof mark index here, it appears to actually be all correct except for the trigger bar/sear. That is the only part that does not match. Also the firing pin number is very hard to read, so it could be a "14" or maybe not. The tirggerbar/sear spring does not have any marking on it and I wthink they were supposed to. So I'm going to try and see if I can find the correct numbered parts to make it complete. I tried uding different unit marking resources to identify the markings on the front of the grip strap, but it didn't seem to match any that I saw.

dtu2179 · 08-03-2009, 12:57 PM

Also, according to the proof marking resource on this site, the "RC" under the crown marking on the gun indicates that the gun was factory reconditioned or repaired, so I wonder if it might have been refininshed at that time.

chuck17 · 08-03-2009, 09:04 PM

The checkering on the magazine base although incorrect, sure does look very cool!

IMHO, the pistol appears to be overbuffed and too soft around the edges for an arsenal rework.

dtu2179 · 08-04-2009, 01:46 PM

Just got a response from Jan Still at his site.

Quote:

Duane
1916 Erfurt, sn 9914, 1.E.M.G.K.XV.A.K. / 19.: 1 Ersatz-Machinengewehr-Kompagnie, XV Armeekorps, weapon no. 19.
Thanks for posting
Jan
__________________
Jan C Still
Site Owner - Operator

dtu2179 · 08-04-2009, 01:47 PM

I know the pictures suck, but does anyone have any idea as to value? I know an acurate appraisal would require hand inspection, but just a ball park. I traded him some stuff for this one and another one (I will post pics of the other one when I get this camera trouble straightened out).

Edward Tinker · 08-04-2009, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtu2179

Also, according to the proof marking resource on this site, the "RC" under the crown marking on the gun indicates that the gun was factory reconditioned or repaired, so I wonder if it might have been refininshed at that time.

I will try and get this changed, that is old infromation.

Where on the site did you read this?

See the FAQ above for this information.

ed

dtu2179 · 08-05-2009, 12:34 AM

It is under "Technical Information" and then under "Markings."

03-26-2009, 12:45 AM	#2
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,541 Thanks: 1,342 Thanked 3,742 Times in 1,020 Posts	brass... Just a quick question... why not the 5.56 mil stuff? All it seems you'd have to do is anneal it?? I'm not a reloader, so I plead ignorance... Best to you, til...lat'r...GT

03-26-2009, 05:03 AM	#5
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Speaking of military ammunition.. We (as in the Norwegian Army) has now replaced the regular Nato rounds with "environmental friendly" non-lead core bullets. Let's call them 7.62mmBellona, 9mmBellona and 5.56mmBellona from the organization who pushed trough that lead bullet's should no longer be allowed. (They deserve to be connected to this little story) There are so many downsides with this new ammunition, I don't know where to start.. -It's a health hazard for those shooting them. I have fired about 100k 7.62Nato rounds over the years, and never had a headache after a day at the range. But one day with 2-300 rounds of this non-lead ammunition, made my head pounding. It is believed to come from the gasses, many experience nausea or headache the following day(s). -They are loaded 'too hot' and make all of our weapon types less reliable. MG's has blown up, MP5 (the locking plate for these rolls get's beaten up and falls out) and even the trusty A3and Glock some times fail on these. Our new rifle however, the H416 seems to handle the ammunition quite well. -They wreck the bore, especially on the Glock -They are far more expensive -Less precise But what frustrates me the most, is that without proper testing, they send 300k of this x.xxBellona **** directly down to Afghanistan to be used in combat by our fighting forces. Luckily the guys there decided (as with anything else that is unknown) to test it thoroughly before use. They experienced that several rounds didn't going off, some was too weak to cycle properly and MG's blew up. At least one soldier was injured by this.. btw. This has nothing to do with military ammunition, but lead shotgun ammunition is also prohibited here in Norway, for environmental reasons. I'm a hunter and find this a very ironic. I have wounded so many birds by using steel, that I just don't have the conscience to use it any more. Hunters have been wounded by ricochets and it's a question of time before a shotgun will blow up by the increased pressure. Sorry if my outburst was somewhat off topic __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

04-19-2009, 11:23 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	You have lots of good reasons to get your money back, but not if it doesn't function with fiocchi ammunition. They have a reputation for notoriously low powered ammunition. Try reloading the brass with a known medium handload before you give up on the pistol. They will likely function the pistol properly. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-21-2009, 01:51 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	Put your "wants" in the want to buy forum... you will find dealing with forum members a much more pleasant experience. It won't be long before you find a Luger that meets your requirements. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-03-2009, 10:27 AM	#13
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 792 Thanks: 0 Thanked 86 Times in 36 Posts	Nice looking gun....the mag has been altered with the checkering on the bottom and it may have been re-blued its hard to tell by the photos The grip strap marking is very unusual, which makes it interesting: (Might need some help on this one Geo) I think it translates as follows Infanterie-Regiment 1, Maschinengewehr-Kompagnie, 15th Army Korps, waffe Nr. 19 __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

03-26-2009, 01:55 AM	#3
Chris from Minnesota User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 58 Thanks: 3 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I believe (if not correct me) the 5.56 brass has thicker case walls then .223 Remington same goes for .308 rem. brass and 7.62 NATO brass. .223 rem is not as hot as NATO spec ammo, .223 rem. runs at about 3000 fps where 5.56 NATO runs at about 3250 fps in my AR 15 20" barrel. You can tell by the head stamp on the case, NATO will have the circle with a cross in it. In a combat situation all NATO country's that run across another country's ammo that find the circle with a cross in it know it's good ammo. Also SAMMI states that firing 5.56mm in a .223 rem. chamber is an unsafe ammunition chamber combination. My AR 15's love XM193 from Lake City that's box and sold by Federal, good stuff but expensive. I also love the 5.56 brass for reloading for my AR 15's it was plentiful but harder to find now. Just my .02

04-21-2009, 12:05 PM	#7
dtu2179 User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 38 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks John. But, I think I would rather send it back and put that money towards the gun that I really wanted. I had wanted a nazi marked Luger that was decently priced and that I could shoot from time to time. And 9mm. I figured that the ammo was low powered, which was why it wouldnt function right, but I've had enough of this gun. It was sold to me under false pretenses anyway. Any ideas on a nazi marked replacement?

07-23-2009, 10:24 PM	#9
dtu2179 User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 38 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well hello again everyone. I am in the process of aquiring two Lugers from my uncle. After having sent the one pictured in this thread back for a full refund. I will post some pictures when I get them. Maybe some of you could help me find out some info on them.

07-24-2009, 01:08 AM	#10
HuntMaster User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 69 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Hello Duane, glad you have resolved the problem. I encountered a similar experience on my 1st Luger purchase. My Luger wouldn't function correctly either, so with a little help from LugerDoc, I replaced the mainsprig, and now it functions flawlessly! Maybe you could reacquire the original pistol for a little less money and have a .30 shooter.

08-01-2009, 07:13 PM	#11
dtu2179 User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 38 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well guys, here is one of the new ones. Don't know much about it. It came from my uncle and he said he has had it since the 80s. Cleaned it up today. Its not all matching, but hopfully it will shoot well. It has an interesting inscription on the front of the grip. Any Ideas about value?

08-02-2009, 04:37 PM	#12
dtu2179 User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 38 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry about the quality of some of the photos, but something seems to be wrong with my camera.

08-03-2009, 12:55 PM	#14
dtu2179 User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 38 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yeah, I know some of the pictures are kinda mot so good. The camera was giving me a fit. After looking it over again, and using the proof mark index here, it appears to actually be all correct except for the trigger bar/sear. That is the only part that does not match. Also the firing pin number is very hard to read, so it could be a "14" or maybe not. The tirggerbar/sear spring does not have any marking on it and I wthink they were supposed to. So I'm going to try and see if I can find the correct numbered parts to make it complete. I tried uding different unit marking resources to identify the markings on the front of the grip strap, but it didn't seem to match any that I saw.

08-03-2009, 12:57 PM	#15
dtu2179 User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 38 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Also, according to the proof marking resource on this site, the "RC" under the crown marking on the gun indicates that the gun was factory reconditioned or repaired, so I wonder if it might have been refininshed at that time.

08-03-2009, 09:04 PM	#16
chuck17 User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Fla Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	The checkering on the magazine base although incorrect, sure does look very cool! IMHO, the pistol appears to be overbuffed and too soft around the edges for an arsenal rework.

08-04-2009, 01:47 PM	#18
dtu2179 User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 38 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I know the pictures suck, but does anyone have any idea as to value? I know an acurate appraisal would require hand inspection, but just a ball park. I traded him some stuff for this one and another one (I will post pics of the other one when I get this camera trouble straightened out).

08-05-2009, 12:34 AM	#20
dtu2179 User Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 38 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It is under "Technical Information" and then under "Markings."

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