Selling a 1902 Luger Carbine in the UK

stallturn · 02-09-2009, 09:08 AM

Dear Mr Foley,

You are a frequent poster on this forum, but sometimes you spout the most unmitigated poppycock. Your post on importing Section 7 firearms into the UK was almost totally misinformed.

I hold a Section 7(1) firearms certificate. I am permitted to hold pistols and revolvers at home under strict (but not onerous) conditions. I know tens of other collectors with similar certificates, and through them I know there are hundreds of similar collectors (not a huge number I know, but not as rare as you suggest).

I have imported many Section 7 pistols and revolvers from the US. It can be a very easy process. Post 1898 weapons need a US export licence, but that is the only hassle from the US side. Imports do need to come through a registered dealer (RFD), but again all that is required is finding one to do the paperwork.

You talk about VAT - most of it rubbish. VAT is levied at only 5% on items over 100 years old - ie Antiques. All you have to do is make the right statement on the documentation. Import duty at 25% - where on earth did you get that from? VAT is the only tax applied.

So your $20,000 carbine example, assuming the carriage & insurance numbers are correct, would only cost the buyer $21,787 - a bit of a difference from your calculation of over $30,000.

Visits to the proof house are not required, if the weapon is to be kept as part of a collection and not shot.

I would wish to reassure our US friends that selling weapons into the UK is not as difficult as some would have you believe.

Pontificating on areas in which you clearly have no knowledge is not helpful to such trade as does exist.

By the way, I am looking to add to my collection of cased Webley revolvers (also Tranters). If anyone out there knows of any for sale (minty examples only), please send me a PM. Thanks

raygun · 02-10-2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stallturn

I have imported many Section 7 pistols and revolvers from the US. It can be a very easy process. .

I would wish to reassure our US friends that selling weapons into the UK is not as difficult as some would have you believe.

By the way, I am looking to add to my collection of cased Webley revolvers (also Tranters). If anyone out there knows of any for sale (minty examples only), please send me a PM. Thanks

Sir , I was under the impression that all cartridge firing handguns in the UK had to be deactivated ! You seem to be suggesting otherwise , please clarify ?

stallturn · 02-10-2009, 07:55 PM

Raygun,

You are misinformed.
Firearms law in the UK is indeed very tight, but does entitle bona-fide collectors and shooters to possess live guns.
All is revealed in the 1997 Firearms Act, particularly under its Section 7.
I hold a police issued (Home Office approved) Firearms certificate which enables me to hold certain live firearms at home under strict conditions. Those are:
- Made before 1919
- Of a calibre for which ammunition is considered not readily available
- Kept as part of an established collection

It is prohibited to fire these guns.

If you want more information, this link is useful:
http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publ...df?view=Binary
Go to Chapter 9 - Historic Handguns

raygun · 02-11-2009, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stallturn

Raygun,

You are misinformed.
Firearms law in the UK is indeed very tight, but does entitle bona-fide collectors and shooters to possess live guns.
All is revealed in the 1997 Firearms Act, particularly under its Section 7.
I hold a police issued (Home Office approved) Firearms certificate which enables me to hold certain live firearms at home under strict conditions. Those are:
- Made before 1919
- Of a calibre for which ammunition is considered not readily available
- Kept as part of an established collection

It is prohibited to fire these guns.

If you want more information, this link is useful:
http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publ...df?view=Binary
Go to Chapter 9 - Historic Handguns

Thank you stallturn , I had a browse through the legislation and it seems both confusing , subjective and subject to the whims of the local police !

However it would appear, and please correct me if I'm wrong that it might be possible to keep a Luger and mauser C96 collection under section 7/3 , despite the fact they fire available ammunition if you can show they are part of a genuine collection of historically significant firearms !?

stallturn · 02-11-2009, 07:51 AM

You are absolutely right. The Police appear to have a lot of subjective latitude. Much depends on the individual force firearms team and the attitude of its individual members. It is best to keep on good terms with your Police firearms team.

You are also right about Lugers & C96s. I have Lugers and C96s in my collection at home, but only 7.65mm Lugers and 7.63 C96s. Ammunition for these is not considered 'readily available'.

If you desire to collect 9mm weapons, this is a 'readily available' calibre, and you can collect them under Section 7(3) of the act. However, you may not keep them at home. They must be kept at a 'designated site' - usually a firing range. Section 7(3) weapons may be fired at that designated site.

I see you are in Australia. I have imported a few firearms from there. Although things have tightened up with your authorities, it is again not an onerous process - just beaurocratic.

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02-09-2009, 09:08 AM	#1
stallturn User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dear Mr Foley, You are a frequent poster on this forum, but sometimes you spout the most unmitigated poppycock. Your post on importing Section 7 firearms into the UK was almost totally misinformed. I hold a Section 7(1) firearms certificate. I am permitted to hold pistols and revolvers at home under strict (but not onerous) conditions. I know tens of other collectors with similar certificates, and through them I know there are hundreds of similar collectors (not a huge number I know, but not as rare as you suggest). I have imported many Section 7 pistols and revolvers from the US. It can be a very easy process. Post 1898 weapons need a US export licence, but that is the only hassle from the US side. Imports do need to come through a registered dealer (RFD), but again all that is required is finding one to do the paperwork. You talk about VAT - most of it rubbish. VAT is levied at only 5% on items over 100 years old - ie Antiques. All you have to do is make the right statement on the documentation. Import duty at 25% - where on earth did you get that from? VAT is the only tax applied. So your $20,000 carbine example, assuming the carriage & insurance numbers are correct, would only cost the buyer $21,787 - a bit of a difference from your calculation of over $30,000. Visits to the proof house are not required, if the weapon is to be kept as part of a collection and not shot. I would wish to reassure our US friends that selling weapons into the UK is not as difficult as some would have you believe. Pontificating on areas in which you clearly have no knowledge is not helpful to such trade as does exist. By the way, I am looking to add to my collection of cased Webley revolvers (also Tranters). If anyone out there knows of any for sale (minty examples only), please send me a PM. Thanks

02-10-2009, 07:55 PM	#3
stallturn User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Raygun, You are misinformed. Firearms law in the UK is indeed very tight, but does entitle bona-fide collectors and shooters to possess live guns. All is revealed in the 1997 Firearms Act, particularly under its Section 7. I hold a police issued (Home Office approved) Firearms certificate which enables me to hold certain live firearms at home under strict conditions. Those are: - Made before 1919 - Of a calibre for which ammunition is considered not readily available - Kept as part of an established collection It is prohibited to fire these guns. If you want more information, this link is useful: http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publ...df?view=Binary Go to Chapter 9 - Historic Handguns

02-11-2009, 07:51 AM	#5
stallturn User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	You are absolutely right. The Police appear to have a lot of subjective latitude. Much depends on the individual force firearms team and the attitude of its individual members. It is best to keep on good terms with your Police firearms team. You are also right about Lugers & C96s. I have Lugers and C96s in my collection at home, but only 7.65mm Lugers and 7.63 C96s. Ammunition for these is not considered 'readily available'. If you desire to collect 9mm weapons, this is a 'readily available' calibre, and you can collect them under Section 7(3) of the act. However, you may not keep them at home. They must be kept at a 'designated site' - usually a firing range. Section 7(3) weapons may be fired at that designated site. I see you are in Australia. I have imported a few firearms from there. Although things have tightened up with your authorities, it is again not an onerous process - just beaurocratic.