Latest Addition

[Marvin]

Since I have been located on assignment in Florida, I have been able to make a couple of Luger purchases. The latest is a very late war Kreighoff! This was a pistol I was not at all familiar with, but with the kind help of John Dunkle, I think I made a pretty decent deal. John was so kind in helping determine that this was in fact a true Kreighoff, and I wanted to thank him publicly for his time and efforts in assisting me.


This Luger is one of the 200+- that was assembled at the factory by the workers for the US 11th Army that occupied Suhl for an approx. 2 week period before control was turned over to the Russians. This is probably the worst looking Luger which I own. It has no serial number, and the parts are mostly Mauser "42" replacement stamped. The frame is a 1941 or 1942 since it has the "P.08" stamp on the left rear area. The toggle assembly (and internal parts) are totally un-numbered except for the middle link with the large "42" replacement stamp and is still "in the white" with no bluing. The receiver was an original Erfurt or DWM part with the three (3) acceptance stamps, no Imperial proof stamp, and no chamber date. The barrel is a new Mauser part with an Eagle/655 stamp only. The finish is a total mismatch with the barrel bluing like new, the receiver a spotty, thin blue, and the frame has some type finish I have never seen before, as it is a very heavy finish which appears to be flaking. The grips are Mauser "S/42" replacements.


Now, what makes this "parts pistol" a Kreighoff? There is the Kreighoff Luftwaffe Proof/Acceptance Stamp, Eagle/2 on the right side of the receiver, in the normal location, in front of the Imperial stamps.


These Lugers were allowed to be made up for the occupation troops and any parts in stock were used. They appear to be parts left from the old Simson, Mauser stock, etc. The parts all appear to be totally out of specifications and were probably kept in the rework bins to be used at a later date if required.


This is a very unusual pistol which does appear to have been fired by someone, and I think it is probably safe to fire since the proof stamp is present. Since this pistol was actually assembled before the actual end of the war I consider it a wartime pistol, but not used by the Germans. It is not one of the PX Kreighoff Lugers since they did require a serial number be stamped on them. The only other explanation, is that it was a "lunchbox" special by a factory worker and he did have the pistol proofed fired (or just stamped it) and had himself a Luger. I just wish this one could talk also and be able to know what type story it could tell. Any comments on this one?


Marvin

Sorry, only comments are cooool.


I love a gun that talks, I know that musuem grade psitols are nice, but to me, one that has seen heavy use or has an unusual story is where history and the road meet!


Must be my history nature always sneaking through!


Sounds like a cool addition to the collection, more history and information is very valuable to me, even if it doesn't make the gun that valuable!


Ed

[bill m]

Hi Marvin,

Your new Lugers sounds very interesting. Do you have any, or know of any documentation stating that 200 plus were made by Krieghoff from left over or replacement parts without any serial numbers? I have never heard of these 200 Lugers and am just wondering how one goes about verifing they were actually made at this time. One thing that is interesting to me is the lack of serial numbers. The last Krieghoff's made had serial numbers. The Mauser ( I presume they are Mauser) Lugers that were put together from replacement parts and spare parts are in the 0 serial range -- 0265, and 0134, are two that I know of. These have a combination of Mauser, Simson, and Erfurt parts, with 42 replacement codes, but are police guns. Just for conversation, are you sure that your gun is not one of these Mauser put together guns, instead of a Kreighoff Gun? If a Krieghoff gun, why all the Mauser parts, and the lack of Krieghoff marked parts? I'm one of these guys that needs more information. Please keep us informed if you find out anything else. Best wishes, bill m

[Marvin]

Bill & 66Mustang,


I am still trying to get more information on the pistol. I did find out that there is no documentation available from the Veteran the pistol was purchased from (I bought from a dealer friend of mine and he did check).


I know little to nothing about Kreighoffs, and John D. has been very kind to help with the information I have so far. As to a serial number, the only number (other than the Mauser replacement code numbers) is 15xx which is located on the left receiver in the normal location. Also, there is a Crown/N to the front and under this number. I assumed this number was stamped when the receiver was made. The receiver is either an Erfurt or DWM with no date stamp. As I stated in my first post, the inspection stamps are present on the right side of the receiver, but no proof stamp was ever stamped from the Imperial Era. The proof is the Early/Mid war used Kreighoff Eagle with "L" in a circle and the "2" under the Eagle.


On the frame, there are no numbers except the internal varying Mauser inspection stamps. I agree that the last Kreighoffs made did have serial numbers in the "0" range, and these were the ones sold in the PX stores for soldiers to purchase.


As to the mix of parts, all appear to be Mauser except the receiver (has the cut on front for the artillery sight). The toggle train is in the white and the surface of the metal is "ripply"; as if it was a forged part and not a machined part, and was never polished, but was stamped with the large "42" replacement code.


The only reason I have to assume it is a Kreighoff is the presence of the Kreighoff proof/Luftwaffe Acceptance stamp. IF this stamp was not there, I would assume it was a "Waffenfabrik USA" pistol. The Kreighoff stamp is real and not a fake unless a real stamp had been used in the post war era.


I agree again with you Bill that this needs more research to make a final determination. I am speculating that the mix of parts was just reject parts on hand in the bins that would fit and work. As to the 200+ pistols assembled, this is a little known number that most collectors are not aware of. I cannot say that this came from Gibson's book, as I don't have a copy, but I sure would like someone to help me do a little research in Gibson's book on these Lugers. I am "down and out" with no reference material with me here in the "Swamp".


All in all, I would be totally lost with this pistol if not for the kind help of John D. If anyone else knows anything about Kreighoffs, I would certainly appreciate any information, even speculation. It is a neat pistol, but sure is UGLY with the bad finish on the parts (except the barrel). The finish on the frame really has me puzzled. It appears to have a blue finish, and then some type "thick" black finish applied which is now flaking in areas. It definetly is not a paint, and appears to have been used/tested, or whatever, and has been there a LONG time. I am at a lose on this finish!


Thanks for the comments, and HELP me.


Marvin

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder! This is never as true as it is with the LUGER. It sounds like you have a bonnified "Lunch Box Gun", and could very well have been "assembled" by a number of people, least of which could have been an American GI. It also could have been a "Gunsmith Gun", done after the end of WW2. I have seen a few. just my thoughts!


Timothy Canney

[John D.]

"Lunchbox Luger"??!!! When did G.I.s carry a "lunchbox" rather then a mess-kit ;^)


Also, based on the markings and the pieces Marvin describes - I believe that this is a correct "Postwar" Krieg. I think Gibson documents approximately 233 (plus another original 12) that were made by the GIs from parts in the factory when it was originally captured. I've also examined a number of these personally, and can attest that most of these were not serialized (as opposed to the PX Kriegs) and often times parts were "in the white" and/or made up from various Luger manufacturers.


Further, based on theories about KU Lugers, I also wouldn't be surprised if some of these "Postwar" Krieg factory frames might even be marked with "P.08" - but that is a debate for another time ;^)


Best guess is that there are about 250 examples of these Postwar, non-serialized Kriegs - but I doubt anyone will know for sure the exact number...


Sorry for the delayed reply in this thread - but just back myself from almost a week on the road, so I'm trying to get caught up..!

[Marvin]

Hello John,


This is a very interesting Luger and I hope it is correct; In this field of collecting, you never know!


The one thing that certainly makes me think it is correct is the Kreighoff stamp. If it is faked, I feel an original stamp was used for the proof. Until someone like John D. is able to look at the pistol, it will be suspect. Maybe I can ship the pistol to you John and let you see it "in person". Do you think this could be a possibility? Once I return home from this assignment I could do this. Just let me know.


Again, your help is certainly appreciated!


Marvin

[John D.]

Hi Marvin..!


Of course you can send this Luger to me for inspection. I'll send you my ship to and FFL info off line.


As an "aside" - not only are the proofs are correct, but as well as the small parts are correct for a Luger that was obtained/brought back in this fashion. If you send it to me, I need to take a look for certain "red flags" (I think I mentioned many of those in private e-mails to you already?), but based on your description, I believe you do have a GI bring back, as I indicated...


Anyway, let me e-mail you off-line with my schedule and ship to info - and let's see if we can't verify what you have..!!!!


Best to you!

[bill m]

Hi,

Marvin states that this pistol does have a serial number on the left receiver, 15xx. Doesn't that kinda throw a monkey wrench in this whole thing? If there are supposedly 200 plus, isn't 15xx kinda high? You mention some might have a serial number, and if so, what is the serial range?


Without any documentation, and no way to check from the vet, couldn't this very well be a recent assembled Luger? There are parts floating around that are in the white, so that really doesn't mean anything.


From a collector standpoint, how can one convince other collectors that this is an actual Krieghoff assembled Luger, which would have special value, and not just a recent assembled shooter?


I hope this gun is something special and that it can be proved so, but as it stands now, we just have a nice story which makes it sound like a special Luger. We have to all be suspicious of these stories as just about everyone has one, and usually they can not be verified. Again, I hope this is something special and can be proved as such, but it sounds pretty suspicious to me at the moment. Good Luck and best wishes.

[John D.]

[Marvin]

John,


Thanks for willing to look at the pistol and make a determination as to its authenticity. Just e-mail me your ship to address and i will get the pistol on its way when I return home. It may be another 3-4 weeks before i get home again, so there is no big rush.


Bill is correct that we need to check this pistol out in more detail and this is the reason I need you to actually see the pistol. As to the serial number on the receiver, I would assume that this was the number originally stamped on the slide by Erfurt or DWM, but it was never proofed by the military, only the Crown/N on the right side of the receiver.


This is going to be interesting to get your report when I send the pistol to you.


Marvin