Uncommon Luger

budia · 02-06-2007, 02:46 PM

Gents,
IÃ?Â´m new to the forum; it's a pleasure to address such knowledgeable people.
Anyway, I have found this DWM commercial with these uncommon toggles. Can you please help me to identify the gun?
Thanks!!

Pete Ebbink · 02-06-2007, 03:13 PM

Hi Alberto,

Could you post a photo of the top of this luger so we can see the front and rear toggle links in good detail ?

budia · 02-06-2007, 04:25 PM

Hi Pete,
thanks for your kind answer. Here are the pics,

Pete Ebbink · 02-06-2007, 05:34 PM

Alberto,

My guess is that your rear toggle link might be a spare part from the Swiss Model 1929 Luger made in Bern.

Here is what the rear toggle link looks like on a typical M1929 luger (photo is from the Simpsons LTD web site) :

QUESTION : Do yo see any faint evidence that the flat part of the top of your rear toggle link, behind the knobs, may have had some serial numbers stamped ?

Here is what the plain toggle "knobs" look like on a Swiss M1929 luger from a side-view :

Maybe your rear toggle link started as a plain Swiss one and had some machining and "dicing" pattern added to look more like the DWM type (???)

The other curious marking is on your luger's left-side receiver...just next to the normal C/N (crown/nitro) commercial proof.

I will let other Members speculate as to what this marking might be :

budia · 02-06-2007, 05:58 PM

Pete,
the flat part of the top of the rear toggle link doesn't seem to have ever had any s/n. And the machining on the knobs look very "authentic" to be a late, non-original addition; weird...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dscn0331cd.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dscn0327a.jpg

Ron Wood · 02-06-2007, 07:14 PM

Very odd. Notice that the "dicing" is at 90 degrees rather than the usual 60 degrees.

Heinz · 02-06-2007, 07:22 PM

Alberto, notice the gaps in the fit of the elements of your toggle train. Compare your gaps to the tight fit of Pete's Swiss model. Your is an assembly of parts, hence the 19 on your middle toggle link. You would find out more if you posted pictures of both sides and showed the entire gun.

Pete Ebbink · 02-06-2007, 07:36 PM

Alberto,

This is the pattern of verticle grooves you normally see on the outer edges of the toggle "knobs" of either a DWM, Erfurt, or Simson toggle.

Those grooves are missing on yours...thus my "theory" that someone may have started with a Swiss M1929 part which is also smooth along the knob edges...

Heniz has a very good point about the "gaps" in between some of the metal parts on your luger. Usually you see much tighter parts tolerances.

budia · 02-07-2007, 01:34 AM

Thanks, gents. I'll try to post better pics...

Lugerdoc · 02-07-2007, 11:29 AM

Al, Your rear toggle link is a DDR made replacement. The C/G indicates a Mauser or Simson rework of this C/N commerical, probably for the military during the late Weimar period. TH

budia · 02-07-2007, 12:52 PM

Thanks again; your expertise truly awes me. Tom, may I ask how you know the toggle link is a DDR replacement? May the part not be a Swiss one,as itÃ?Â´s been said above, to which the machining was later home added? And, please do excuse my ignorance, what does C/N stand for?

Pete Ebbink · 02-07-2007, 12:57 PM

The other curious marking is on your luger's left-side receiver...just next to the normal C/N (crown/nitro) commercial proof.

Lugerdoc · 02-08-2007, 10:25 AM

Al, In addition to having one of these spare unnumbered DDR rear links with the 90d knurling & uncut tops in stock, I've also seen them on several DDR reworks and on the new DDR "N" prefix production PO8s. According to Costanzo's "Proofmarks" page 195, the C/G proof indicates repair by Simson if it has a 5 pip crown and Mauser, if 4 pips are used. TH

budia · 02-08-2007, 12:32 PM

Greeeat info, Tom. Thanks a lot to you all from Spain.

02-06-2007, 02:46 PM	#1
budia User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Uncommon Luger Gents, IÃ?Â´m new to the forum; it's a pleasure to address such knowledgeable people. Anyway, I have found this DWM commercial with these uncommon toggles. Can you please help me to identify the gun? Thanks!!

02-06-2007, 07:14 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Very odd. Notice that the "dicing" is at 90 degrees rather than the usual 60 degrees. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-07-2007, 11:29 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Al, Your rear toggle link is a DDR made replacement. The C/G indicates a Mauser or Simson rework of this C/N commerical, probably for the military during the late Weimar period. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

02-08-2007, 10:25 AM	#13
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Al, In addition to having one of these spare unnumbered DDR rear links with the 90d knurling & uncut tops in stock, I've also seen them on several DDR reworks and on the new DDR "N" prefix production PO8s. According to Costanzo's "Proofmarks" page 195, the C/G proof indicates repair by Simson if it has a 5 pip crown and Mauser, if 4 pips are used. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

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02-06-2007, 03:13 PM	#2
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Alberto, Could you post a photo of the top of this luger so we can see the front and rear toggle links in good detail ?

02-06-2007, 04:25 PM	#3
budia User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Pete, thanks for your kind answer. Here are the pics,

02-06-2007, 05:34 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Alberto, My guess is that your rear toggle link might be a spare part from the Swiss Model 1929 Luger made in Bern. Here is what the rear toggle link looks like on a typical M1929 luger (photo is from the Simpsons LTD web site) : QUESTION : Do yo see any faint evidence that the flat part of the top of your rear toggle link, behind the knobs, may have had some serial numbers stamped ? Here is what the plain toggle "knobs" look like on a Swiss M1929 luger from a side-view : Maybe your rear toggle link started as a plain Swiss one and had some machining and "dicing" pattern added to look more like the DWM type (???) The other curious marking is on your luger's left-side receiver...just next to the normal C/N (crown/nitro) commercial proof. I will let other Members speculate as to what this marking might be :

02-06-2007, 05:58 PM	#5
budia User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete, the flat part of the top of the rear toggle link doesn't seem to have ever had any s/n. And the machining on the knobs look very "authentic" to be a late, non-original addition; weird... http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dscn0331cd.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dscn0327a.jpg

02-06-2007, 07:22 PM	#7
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	Alberto, notice the gaps in the fit of the elements of your toggle train. Compare your gaps to the tight fit of Pete's Swiss model. Your is an assembly of parts, hence the 19 on your middle toggle link. You would find out more if you posted pictures of both sides and showed the entire gun.

02-06-2007, 07:36 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Alberto, This is the pattern of verticle grooves you normally see on the outer edges of the toggle "knobs" of either a DWM, Erfurt, or Simson toggle. Those grooves are missing on yours...thus my "theory" that someone may have started with a Swiss M1929 part which is also smooth along the knob edges... Heniz has a very good point about the "gaps" in between some of the metal parts on your luger. Usually you see much tighter parts tolerances.

02-07-2007, 01:34 AM	#9
budia User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks, gents. I'll try to post better pics...

02-07-2007, 12:52 PM	#11
budia User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks again; your expertise truly awes me. Tom, may I ask how you know the toggle link is a DDR replacement? May the part not be a Swiss one,as itÃ?Â´s been said above, to which the machining was later home added? And, please do excuse my ignorance, what does C/N stand for?

02-07-2007, 12:57 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	The other curious marking is on your luger's left-side receiver...just next to the normal C/N (crown/nitro) commercial proof.

02-08-2007, 12:32 PM	#14
budia User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Greeeat info, Tom. Thanks a lot to you all from Spain.