Hypothetical Situation - shipping to Non-FFL

run4ever · 01-07-2007, 12:30 AM

This is purely hypothetical....what would happen if a reputable business engaged in buying and selling firearms mistakenly ship a modern firearm to a non-FFL holder (the buyer) instead of the FFL holder (transfer agent)?

1. What would the ATF do?
2. If the buyer gets the shipper to send their FFL, then should the buyer ship back?
3. If the package was never opened and contents neve REALLY confirmed, can the buyer do a 'return to sender'?

Again, purely a hypothetical situation.

lew1 · 01-07-2007, 08:30 AM

1. The seller has just committed a felony which gives time in a secure facility. It is easy to say what the ATF could do. What the ATF would do would depend on a host of factors, including on what mode the agent in charge. They can arrest or they can issue a warning. Depends on the circumstances.

2. Good question. I would say that the buyer should have a FFL dealer send it back. Shows good faith if the ATF comes around.

3. Depends on postal regulations. If the mail man was standing there, with the package in hand, the buyer could refuse to accept delivery. The buyer, in this instance, is safe since he has never had possession and possession still remains with the post office. If the buyer has the package in hand and then takes it back to the post office to be returned - I do not know as this would depend on the postal regulations.

Ron Smith · 01-07-2007, 09:21 AM

Legally, a non FFL holder can ship a firearm to an FFL holder, but not the other way around, unless it is being returned by the FFL holder to the owner of record.

The best thing to do, would be to refuse delivery on the item "unopened". It would then be returned to sender automaticly. Once it has been opened it would have to be returned at buyers expense.

Fritzer · 01-07-2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lew1
~~~~
2. Good question. I would say that the buyer should have a FFL dealer send it back. Shows good faith if the ATF comes around.
~~~~
[/B]

Why would FFL dealer #2 get involved??
Shipping a wepon of unknown origin (the guy carrying it in doesn't claim to 'own' it, or really have legal possession ?).
How would you record THAT transaction from a sending FFL records?

Not an FFL myself - just thinkin'

Fritz.

lew1 · 01-07-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritzer
Why would FFL dealer #2 get involved??

Shipping a wepon of unknown origin (the guy carrying it in doesn't claim to 'own' it, or really have legal possession ?).

How would you record THAT transaction from a sending FFL records?

Not an FFL myself - just thinkin'

Fritz.

1 - Because you would pay him a fee to do the work.

2 - It would be known because the person bringing it in could be idenfitied.

3 - The sending dealer would log it in from the person who brought it in and when shipped log it out to the receiving dealer.

Edward Tinker · 01-07-2007, 01:35 PM

1. FFL sends it illegally to a non-FFL
2. Does non-FFL get into trouble by receiving an item they ordered but expected it to go to the legal FFL?

a. Receiver takes item and says nothing, keeping copies of request / bill of sale
b. Receiver refuses it (if never opened, if opened, then it might be a legal mistake to send it back)
c. Receiver takes to original FFL it was supposed to have been sent to and has them "log" it in.

d. Sending it back via FFL would solve getting it logged, but otherwise?

Depends on how you feel about the legalities in your area...

Brent B. · 01-07-2007, 02:46 PM

I think if I realized I'd received the gun instead of the intended FFL dealer I would contact the seller and ask how he wanted me to proceed. I would have to think something like that was unintentional and they'd want to get it resovled quickly, correctly and quietly. Just my 2 cents. Brent B.

run4ever · 01-07-2007, 04:07 PM

Interesting answers. I appreciate you weighing in on this hypothetical situation. I used to be an FFL holder so Im familiar with all the rules, but this came up as a topic in conversation and I thought I would see what others thought.

01-07-2007, 12:30 AM	#1
run4ever User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: shawnee mission, ks Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hypothetical Situation - shipping to Non-FFL This is purely hypothetical....what would happen if a reputable business engaged in buying and selling firearms mistakenly ship a modern firearm to a non-FFL holder (the buyer) instead of the FFL holder (transfer agent)? 1. What would the ATF do? 2. If the buyer gets the shipper to send their FFL, then should the buyer ship back? 3. If the package was never opened and contents neve REALLY confirmed, can the buyer do a 'return to sender'? Again, purely a hypothetical situation.

01-07-2007, 09:21 AM	#3
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Legally, a non FFL holder can ship a firearm to an FFL holder, but not the other way around, unless it is being returned by the FFL holder to the owner of record. The best thing to do, would be to refuse delivery on the item "unopened". It would then be returned to sender automaticly. Once it has been opened it would have to be returned at buyers expense. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

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01-07-2007, 08:30 AM	#2
lew1 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,108 Thanks: 82 Thanked 204 Times in 112 Posts	1. The seller has just committed a felony which gives time in a secure facility. It is easy to say what the ATF could do. What the ATF would do would depend on a host of factors, including on what mode the agent in charge. They can arrest or they can issue a warning. Depends on the circumstances. 2. Good question. I would say that the buyer should have a FFL dealer send it back. Shows good faith if the ATF comes around. 3. Depends on postal regulations. If the mail man was standing there, with the package in hand, the buyer could refuse to accept delivery. The buyer, in this instance, is safe since he has never had possession and possession still remains with the post office. If the buyer has the package in hand and then takes it back to the post office to be returned - I do not know as this would depend on the postal regulations.

01-07-2007, 01:35 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,967 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,596 Times in 2,117 Posts	1. FFL sends it illegally to a non-FFL 2. Does non-FFL get into trouble by receiving an item they ordered but expected it to go to the legal FFL? a. Receiver takes item and says nothing, keeping copies of request / bill of sale b. Receiver refuses it (if never opened, if opened, then it might be a legal mistake to send it back) c. Receiver takes to original FFL it was supposed to have been sent to and has them "log" it in. d. Sending it back via FFL would solve getting it logged, but otherwise? Depends on how you feel about the legalities in your area...

01-07-2007, 02:46 PM	#7
Brent B. User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 176 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think if I realized I'd received the gun instead of the intended FFL dealer I would contact the seller and ask how he wanted me to proceed. I would have to think something like that was unintentional and they'd want to get it resovled quickly, correctly and quietly. Just my 2 cents. Brent B.

01-07-2007, 04:07 PM	#8
run4ever User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: shawnee mission, ks Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Interesting answers. I appreciate you weighing in on this hypothetical situation. I used to be an FFL holder so Im familiar with all the rules, but this came up as a topic in conversation and I thought I would see what others thought.