Carbine Hunt - Page 2

Imperial Arms · 06-09-2006, 10:01 PM

Hello Jerry,

I have the strap which is carefully rolled inside the case and I do not leave it fastened to the loops. In addition, I also have the original carbine cleaning rod and loading tool which came with the case. It was only missing the three spare magazines - damn! The case does not have any special type of lining.

Notice that the buckle is covered with leather which is very finely stitched. Also the buckle on the strap is covered in leather. My early carbine sling (stamped 'Abercombie & Fitch, made in Austria' with no logo) is also covered with leather on the buckle. I have also seen an early Mauser C96 leather carry case (full length) and a strap with leather covered buckles. It is my opinion that leather covered buckles were used in early production for commercial holsters and cases up to about 1912-14. My A&F carrying case (probably made in the US) has brass buckles and it was probably made between 1915-1920.

The pigskin scabbard is the same model which is also shown in the book LAR in the same chapter where it shows the identical A&F case which is in my collection. The quality of stitching on the pigskin scabbard is outstanding - there are no 'jaggies' or shaking during the sewing process, not even along the tube section for the cleaning rod - it shows early German workmanship at its highest level.

Someday when we meet at a gun show, I shall glady show you both scabbards. I am sure that you will appreciate the quality of both cases.

Cheers,
Albert

Pete Ebbink · 06-10-2006, 12:24 AM

Hi Albert,

I have "borrowed" your photo from your web page to show Eric what your authentic A&F carbine case/pouch looks like in glorious color.

I was not aware you had purchased this item from M. Reese. Very nice piece to own. I know you are proud to own it.

Imperial Arms · 06-10-2006, 01:37 AM

Hello Pete,

Indeed, I am very proud of both carbine scabbards. If I remember correctly, I purchased the A&F case in 1997 from a collector in California who had purchased it from Reese many years before. At that time, I paid a hefty amount for this case, but I do not regret it. It would be extremely difficult to find another one of this style marked A&F.

Since the picture was taken, I have added the following items to the set/display: an original A&F catalog dated 1910 listing the M1902 Carbine; an original Hans Tauscher catalog from 1912-14; a small universal 'sewing' oil can; an early glass bottle of 3-in-1 oil, sealed with all its oil (yes, the very popular 3-in-1 oil was sold by A&F in their catalog for hunters and fishermen); an early A&F hunting season timetable; and a first issue 1917 hunting license badge from the state of New York.

There are still a few 'bits n' pieces' which I am seeking to completely round out a set.

Enjoy,
Albert

lugerholsterrepair · 06-10-2006, 11:12 AM

Pete, Thanks for the great photo..I will put it in my archives of superior leather.
Albert, Yes, I noticed the leather covered buckles. A sure sign of early quality. Thank you for the information on lining. I have made a couple of these cases and am still perfecting the details. I have lined some in cloth and some with a very soft pigskin. The pigskin is excellent. I would prefer to line some with shearling but that material is somewhat difficult.

These types of cases are not exactly common, to have a good original is a prize !
Thanks, Jerry Burney

Imperial Arms · 06-10-2006, 03:45 PM

Hello Jerry,

If I had to give a theory on the type of material used for a lining in a carbine scabbard, the order would be as follows: thin suede-like material something like 'shami' cloth; a good quality cloth; wool-like material or 'fleece'. (excuse the spelling mistakes describing these materials)

If you notice on the pigskin scabbard, the flap and two bottom edges are covered with another piece of pigskin leather for reinforcement and protection. (The bottom of the scabbard expands outwards when the stock is inserted). The black stitching along these boarder edges are very fine/small.

Keep up your excellent work

Albert

Ron Wood · 06-10-2006, 07:52 PM

Tac,
Oy, indeed! Glad to see you back in communication. I trust you have not developed webbed feet in soggy Tokyo.

Pete Ebbink · 06-10-2006, 08:56 PM

Used to go to Japan for 3-weeks each year when I worked for a Japanese company based in the Pacific NW...sure missed a baked-potatoe with all the fixin's when I was there...

lugerholsterrepair · 06-10-2006, 11:48 PM

Albert, Thank you for the great info...I agree on the lining analysis...Actually I suppose these cases would not need to be lined at all as most Luger holsters are not. The suede on the interior acts as it's lining. Shearling would be the most elegant but the hardest to work with.
Thanks for the interest and input on a very interesting subject. Jerry Burney

Pete Ebbink · 06-13-2006, 01:14 PM

Eric,

Back to the issue of the numbering of 1920's carbines in 9mm variety :

In C. Kenyon's 2nd. book (L-TMNP) on page 48 he describes and displays a photo of a 9 mm stocked carbine (also minty...) with the reported serial number of # 72302.

This one Kenyon calls a "1914" commerical carbine as the proofing and serial number places it in the 1914 time period. Photo caption "A" states it is in 9 mm.

Another possiblity is that this carbine was a product of a very, very good, skilled mechanic in Waffenfabrik-USA and was so good it even fooled this luger expert and author.

Ron Wood · 06-13-2006, 02:09 PM

9mm Carbines have been around for a long time. Back around 1968 I found a beautiful 9mm 1902 Carbine in Alamogordo, NM. It had come out of a collection of a retired Air Force NCO. It was for sale, but $2500 was a lot of money for a new Captain with couple of kids, so I had to pass.
I do not see any compelling reason to suspect the "1914 Commercial Carbine" is anything other than what Charlie says it is. Waffenfabrik-USA isn't responsible for every Luger that doesn't fall neatly into a particular category.
I do not know if the Carbine that Ralph has, or had, that formerly belonged to John Morgan is the same one I am acquainted with. I do know that John was a consummate craftsman, capable of world class machining and restoration. John made a Carbine, and I know this because I gave him the stock lug that he grafted onto the Carbine. It was left over from a junk frame that I had cut the web out of to convert a 1900 frame from a flat mainspring to a coil mainspring. John had many Lugers, so the Carbine that Ralph was selling may or may not be the one John made. The serial number range makes me suspect it might be, since 36640 is pretty low for a 1920, or even a 1914.

06-10-2006, 11:12 AM	#24
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Pete, Thanks for the great photo..I will put it in my archives of superior leather. Albert, Yes, I noticed the leather covered buckles. A sure sign of early quality. Thank you for the information on lining. I have made a couple of these cases and am still perfecting the details. I have lined some in cloth and some with a very soft pigskin. The pigskin is excellent. I would prefer to line some with shearling but that material is somewhat difficult. These types of cases are not exactly common, to have a good original is a prize ! Thanks, Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-10-2006, 07:52 PM	#26
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	Tac, Oy, indeed! Glad to see you back in communication. I trust you have not developed webbed feet in soggy Tokyo. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-10-2006, 11:48 PM	#28
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Albert, Thank you for the great info...I agree on the lining analysis...Actually I suppose these cases would not need to be lined at all as most Luger holsters are not. The suede on the interior acts as it's lining. Shearling would be the most elegant but the hardest to work with. Thanks for the interest and input on a very interesting subject. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-13-2006, 02:09 PM	#30
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,040 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,257 Times in 1,724 Posts	9mm Carbines have been around for a long time. Back around 1968 I found a beautiful 9mm 1902 Carbine in Alamogordo, NM. It had come out of a collection of a retired Air Force NCO. It was for sale, but $2500 was a lot of money for a new Captain with couple of kids, so I had to pass. I do not see any compelling reason to suspect the "1914 Commercial Carbine" is anything other than what Charlie says it is. Waffenfabrik-USA isn't responsible for every Luger that doesn't fall neatly into a particular category. I do not know if the Carbine that Ralph has, or had, that formerly belonged to John Morgan is the same one I am acquainted with. I do know that John was a consummate craftsman, capable of world class machining and restoration. John made a Carbine, and I know this because I gave him the stock lug that he grafted onto the Carbine. It was left over from a junk frame that I had cut the web out of to convert a 1900 frame from a flat mainspring to a coil mainspring. John had many Lugers, so the Carbine that Ralph was selling may or may not be the one John made. The serial number range makes me suspect it might be, since 36640 is pretty low for a 1920, or even a 1914. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

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06-09-2006, 10:01 PM	#21
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Jerry, I have the strap which is carefully rolled inside the case and I do not leave it fastened to the loops. In addition, I also have the original carbine cleaning rod and loading tool which came with the case. It was only missing the three spare magazines - damn! The case does not have any special type of lining. Notice that the buckle is covered with leather which is very finely stitched. Also the buckle on the strap is covered in leather. My early carbine sling (stamped 'Abercombie & Fitch, made in Austria' with no logo) is also covered with leather on the buckle. I have also seen an early Mauser C96 leather carry case (full length) and a strap with leather covered buckles. It is my opinion that leather covered buckles were used in early production for commercial holsters and cases up to about 1912-14. My A&F carrying case (probably made in the US) has brass buckles and it was probably made between 1915-1920. The pigskin scabbard is the same model which is also shown in the book LAR in the same chapter where it shows the identical A&F case which is in my collection. The quality of stitching on the pigskin scabbard is outstanding - there are no 'jaggies' or shaking during the sewing process, not even along the tube section for the cleaning rod - it shows early German workmanship at its highest level. Someday when we meet at a gun show, I shall glady show you both scabbards. I am sure that you will appreciate the quality of both cases. Cheers, Albert

06-10-2006, 12:24 AM	#22
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Albert, I have "borrowed" your photo from your web page to show Eric what your authentic A&F carbine case/pouch looks like in glorious color. I was not aware you had purchased this item from M. Reese. Very nice piece to own. I know you are proud to own it.

06-10-2006, 01:37 AM	#23
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Pete, Indeed, I am very proud of both carbine scabbards. If I remember correctly, I purchased the A&F case in 1997 from a collector in California who had purchased it from Reese many years before. At that time, I paid a hefty amount for this case, but I do not regret it. It would be extremely difficult to find another one of this style marked A&F. Since the picture was taken, I have added the following items to the set/display: an original A&F catalog dated 1910 listing the M1902 Carbine; an original Hans Tauscher catalog from 1912-14; a small universal 'sewing' oil can; an early glass bottle of 3-in-1 oil, sealed with all its oil (yes, the very popular 3-in-1 oil was sold by A&F in their catalog for hunters and fishermen); an early A&F hunting season timetable; and a first issue 1917 hunting license badge from the state of New York. There are still a few 'bits n' pieces' which I am seeking to completely round out a set. Enjoy, Albert

06-10-2006, 03:45 PM	#25
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Jerry, If I had to give a theory on the type of material used for a lining in a carbine scabbard, the order would be as follows: thin suede-like material something like 'shami' cloth; a good quality cloth; wool-like material or 'fleece'. (excuse the spelling mistakes describing these materials) If you notice on the pigskin scabbard, the flap and two bottom edges are covered with another piece of pigskin leather for reinforcement and protection. (The bottom of the scabbard expands outwards when the stock is inserted). The black stitching along these boarder edges are very fine/small. Keep up your excellent work Albert

06-10-2006, 08:56 PM	#27
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Used to go to Japan for 3-weeks each year when I worked for a Japanese company based in the Pacific NW...sure missed a baked-potatoe with all the fixin's when I was there...

06-13-2006, 01:14 PM	#29
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Eric, Back to the issue of the numbering of 1920's carbines in 9mm variety : In C. Kenyon's 2nd. book (L-TMNP) on page 48 he describes and displays a photo of a 9 mm stocked carbine (also minty...) with the reported serial number of # 72302. This one Kenyon calls a "1914" commerical carbine as the proofing and serial number places it in the 1914 time period. Photo caption "A" states it is in 9 mm. Another possiblity is that this carbine was a product of a very, very good, skilled mechanic in Waffenfabrik-USA and was so good it even fooled this luger expert and author.