Ammunition: 7.63x25 Mauser Vs. 7.62x25 Tokarev

Kyrie · 08-21-2023, 11:55 AM

There was recently a thread in “Early Lugers (1900-1906)“ labeled “Identifying A Luger” that touched on the differences between the 7.65x21 Luger cartridge and the 7.63x25 Mauser cartridge. The thread segued into a warning to avoid firing 7.62x25 Tokarev in a Model 1895 Mauser (I suspect the poster meant a C96 Mauser pistol) because the 7.62 Tokarev cartridge is
“loaded way hotter” and will eventually “blow up the Mauser”.

I have some mixed feelings about this warning.

I am in complete agreement that any firearm chambered for the 7.63x25 Mauser cartridge should only be fired with good quality 7.63x25 Mauser ammunition that is known to be in good condition. That is, to my mind, just common sense and within the sensible rules of safe firearm handling and use.

That said strongly and up front, what follows are the other side of the mixed feelings mentioned above…

It is my opinion and my experience that 7.63x25 Mauser and 7.62x25 Tokarev ammunition are different names for the same cartridge. There can be (and I have noticed) some slight dimensional differences between 7.63x25 Mauser and 7.62x25 Tokarev as produced in different countries and at different times, but such differences are, I believe, the result of minor manufacturing differences and not a reflection of intentional design differences.

Let’s look at some reference sources.

Fred Datig, in his “Soviet Russian Tokarev ‘TT’ Pistols and Cartridges 1929 - 1953” covered this subject in some detail. Here is a quotation from page 131 that may be of some interest, “As has been mentioned in Chapter Four, to quote, ‘in 1929, the designers Korovin and Prilutskiy converted (redesigned) their (prototype) pistols to the 7.62mm caliber cartridge (after) the Artillery Committee proposed developing them for the 7.63mm caliber Mauser (pistol cartridge …”
“Except for that which one may consider manufacturing tolerances, the 7.62 mm Tokarev and the 7.63 Mauser pistol cartridges are relatively identical and interchangeable.”

More currently, the interchangeability of .30 Mauser and .30 Tokarev has been covered in Jane’s “Ammunition Handbook” thusly:

“7.62 x 25 mm

Synonym. 7.62 mm Tokarev; 7.62 Soviet pistol; Russian; 0.30 Mauser; 7.63 x 25mm

Armament
Tokarev TT33 automatic pistol; various obsolete Soviet sub-machine guns (PPD, PPSH, PPS); Chinese Type 85 sub-machine gun and Type 80 pistol. Most pistols and steel sub-machine guns chambered for the 7.63 mm Mauser cartridge will probably operate satisfactorily with this round and vice versa.

Development
This cartridge actually began life as the 7.63 mm Mauser automatic pistol cartridge. It was taken into use by the Russian forces in the early 1900s and the pistol remained popular with the Bolshevik armies, one model being produced specifically for the Soviet As a result manufacture of the Mauser cartridge began in Russia, and when in due course the Tokarev automatic pistol was developed, it was designed around the Mauser cartridge. For manufacturing convenience the barrel of the Tokarev was 7.62 mm calibre, thus the Soviet cartridge lost its Mauser designation and became known as the 7.62 mm Tokarev. The dimensional differences between the Soviet round and the original Mauser specifications are minute and largely due to the manufacturing processes. It can therefore be expected that any weapon originally using the Mauser cartridge will work with the Soviet pattern and vice versa. (Emphasis mine – Kyrie) This cartridge has been manufactured in China and various countries of the former Warsaw Pact, but always to the Soviet specification. The Chinese pattern (below) is stated to be for the automatic pistols Type 54 sub-machine guns and Type 80 and for the Type 85 light sub-machinegun. Like the 7.63 x 25 mm cartridge from which derived, the 7.62 x 25 mm performs very well against 7.62 soft body armour and light metal, such as automobile bodies.

Description
The case is rimless and bottlenecked. The standard ball bullet is round-nosed and lead cored with a steel jacket.

Specifications Ball Type P
Round length: 34.56 mm
Round weight (nominal)- 10.65 g
Case length: 25.14 mm
Rim diameter: 9.91 mm
Bullet diameter, 7.82 mm
Bullet weight: 5.57 g
Muzzle velocity: 505 m/s
Muzzle energy: 709 J

Turning to commercial (i.e. C.I.P.) ammunition manufacture, we find an absence of differences in manufacturing chamber pressure standards between 7.63x25 Mauser and 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridges; both cartridges have the same chamber pressure standards (e.g. Pmax 2600, Pk 2990, and PE 3380).

With all of that said, let me repeat: I discourage shooting any cartridge other than 7.63x25 Mauser in any firearm chambered for the 7.63 Mauser cartridge. But I have done so, for necessity’s sake, when commercial 7.63 Mauser ammunition was essentially unavailable here in the USA, circa 1960 – 1986. During that period, I fired tens of thousands of rounds of Soviet Russian 7.62 Tokarev through a great many different Mauser C96 pistols, without incident. When good, high quality, Soviet Russian M30 ball ammunition became unavailable here in the USA I briefly switched to 7.62x25 ammunition manufactured in the Peoples’ Republic of China but discontinued that practice shortly thereafter as I began to experience problems with the PRC origin ammunition. It was at roughly this time that European made commercial 7.63 Mauser ammunition became available which mooted the need to fire 7.62 Tokarev in any firearm chambered for the 7.63 Mauser.

All of this is either my opinion based on long experience, or quoted from publicly available reference works, all offered entirely FWIW.

08-21-2023, 11:55 AM	#1
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Ammunition: 7.63x25 Mauser Vs. 7.62x25 Tokarev There was recently a thread in “Early Lugers (1900-1906)“ labeled “Identifying A Luger” that touched on the differences between the 7.65x21 Luger cartridge and the 7.63x25 Mauser cartridge. The thread segued into a warning to avoid firing 7.62x25 Tokarev in a Model 1895 Mauser (I suspect the poster meant a C96 Mauser pistol) because the 7.62 Tokarev cartridge is “loaded way hotter” and will eventually “blow up the Mauser”. I have some mixed feelings about this warning. I am in complete agreement that any firearm chambered for the 7.63x25 Mauser cartridge should only be fired with good quality 7.63x25 Mauser ammunition that is known to be in good condition. That is, to my mind, just common sense and within the sensible rules of safe firearm handling and use. That said strongly and up front, what follows are the other side of the mixed feelings mentioned above… It is my opinion and my experience that 7.63x25 Mauser and 7.62x25 Tokarev ammunition are different names for the same cartridge. There can be (and I have noticed) some slight dimensional differences between 7.63x25 Mauser and 7.62x25 Tokarev as produced in different countries and at different times, but such differences are, I believe, the result of minor manufacturing differences and not a reflection of intentional design differences. Let’s look at some reference sources. Fred Datig, in his “Soviet Russian Tokarev ‘TT’ Pistols and Cartridges 1929 - 1953” covered this subject in some detail. Here is a quotation from page 131 that may be of some interest, “As has been mentioned in Chapter Four, to quote, ‘in 1929, the designers Korovin and Prilutskiy converted (redesigned) their (prototype) pistols to the 7.62mm caliber cartridge (after) the Artillery Committee proposed developing them for the 7.63mm caliber Mauser (pistol cartridge …” “Except for that which one may consider manufacturing tolerances, the 7.62 mm Tokarev and the 7.63 Mauser pistol cartridges are relatively identical and interchangeable.” More currently, the interchangeability of .30 Mauser and .30 Tokarev has been covered in Jane’s “Ammunition Handbook” thusly: “7.62 x 25 mm Synonym. 7.62 mm Tokarev; 7.62 Soviet pistol; Russian; 0.30 Mauser; 7.63 x 25mm Armament Tokarev TT33 automatic pistol; various obsolete Soviet sub-machine guns (PPD, PPSH, PPS); Chinese Type 85 sub-machine gun and Type 80 pistol. Most pistols and steel sub-machine guns chambered for the 7.63 mm Mauser cartridge will probably operate satisfactorily with this round and vice versa. Development This cartridge actually began life as the 7.63 mm Mauser automatic pistol cartridge. It was taken into use by the Russian forces in the early 1900s and the pistol remained popular with the Bolshevik armies, one model being produced specifically for the Soviet As a result manufacture of the Mauser cartridge began in Russia, and when in due course the Tokarev automatic pistol was developed, it was designed around the Mauser cartridge. For manufacturing convenience the barrel of the Tokarev was 7.62 mm calibre, thus the Soviet cartridge lost its Mauser designation and became known as the 7.62 mm Tokarev. The dimensional differences between the Soviet round and the original Mauser specifications are minute and largely due to the manufacturing processes. It can therefore be expected that any weapon originally using the Mauser cartridge will work with the Soviet pattern and vice versa. (Emphasis mine – Kyrie) This cartridge has been manufactured in China and various countries of the former Warsaw Pact, but always to the Soviet specification. The Chinese pattern (below) is stated to be for the automatic pistols Type 54 sub-machine guns and Type 80 and for the Type 85 light sub-machinegun. Like the 7.63 x 25 mm cartridge from which derived, the 7.62 x 25 mm performs very well against 7.62 soft body armour and light metal, such as automobile bodies. Description The case is rimless and bottlenecked. The standard ball bullet is round-nosed and lead cored with a steel jacket. Specifications Ball Type P Round length: 34.56 mm Round weight (nominal)- 10.65 g Case length: 25.14 mm Rim diameter: 9.91 mm Bullet diameter, 7.82 mm Bullet weight: 5.57 g Muzzle velocity: 505 m/s Muzzle energy: 709 J Turning to commercial (i.e. C.I.P.) ammunition manufacture, we find an absence of differences in manufacturing chamber pressure standards between 7.63x25 Mauser and 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridges; both cartridges have the same chamber pressure standards (e.g. Pmax 2600, Pk 2990, and PE 3380). With all of that said, let me repeat: I discourage shooting any cartridge other than 7.63x25 Mauser in any firearm chambered for the 7.63 Mauser cartridge. But I have done so, for necessity’s sake, when commercial 7.63 Mauser ammunition was essentially unavailable here in the USA, circa 1960 – 1986. During that period, I fired tens of thousands of rounds of Soviet Russian 7.62 Tokarev through a great many different Mauser C96 pistols, without incident. When good, high quality, Soviet Russian M30 ball ammunition became unavailable here in the USA I briefly switched to 7.62x25 ammunition manufactured in the Peoples’ Republic of China but discontinued that practice shortly thereafter as I began to experience problems with the PRC origin ammunition. It was at roughly this time that European made commercial 7.63 Mauser ammunition became available which mooted the need to fire 7.62 Tokarev in any firearm chambered for the 7.63 Mauser. All of this is either my opinion based on long experience, or quoted from publicly available reference works, all offered entirely FWIW.