1917 DWM Luger - Please help !!!

MarkR · 04-27-2004, 02:30 PM

I am clueless to what I've inherited. All I can say is that it originated from my grandfather, an officer in WW II. As the story goes it was taken from a fallen German officer on the battlefield. A story I can, in no way, verify.

It has a 1917 year stamped on it behind the rear sight. Each part has 2 digits stamped on them which coincide with the serial number of 7293. It has a leather holster and two magazines. The leather holster is black with no discernible markings and the two magazines only have a "Made in Germany" DWM marking.

The grips are made of wood and, as far as I know, there have been no mod's done to the weapon. It is still in, what I consider, an excellent and firing condition.

There are 4 symbols on the right side of the breach and a series of characters and numbers on the right side of the barrel below the rear gunsight.

All comments / observations will be greatly appreciated. (I could add photo's if I knew how).

Any comment will be greatly appreciated.

policeluger · 04-27-2004, 02:51 PM

Mark...I would love to help you but a bit confused...."1917 year stamped on it behind the rear sight"...."on the right side of the barrel below the rear gunsight"...are you looking at this correct?. Are the mag bottoms aluminum or wood, why do you say this is a DWM marking?...look under holster flap and on back, look real good but you should find some mark, anything would help is answering you questions...and a picture or two would really help...

Lugerlover · 04-27-2004, 02:57 PM

Mark,
How long is the barrel. If the date is behind the rear sight, it sounds like an artillery model.
Best Regards,
Bill

John Sabato · 04-27-2004, 03:05 PM

Mark,

there is a fine tutorial on uploading photos into your message posts at the top of the message thread list in the Site Help & Feedback Forum...

If you read that and are familiar with Microsoft Windows and browsing the Internet, then you should be able to upload photos without too much trouble... But, if after reading the tutorial, you still can't upload photos, please let us know and someone will be glad to help you throught the upload photo process.

Some additional questions in the mean time...

The barrel length is determined by inserting a cleaning rod until it touches the bolt face (with the toggle down) and marking the cleaning rod at the muzzle... then remove the cleaning rod and measure the distanct from the mark to the tip of the rod...Is the rear sight in front of the chamber? or on the rearmost part of the toggle?

MarkR · 04-27-2004, 03:09 PM

Between the rear sight and forward of the breach is stamped 1917. The mags are of aluminium with a DWM and Made in Germany stamp ( No serial number ).

The barrel is +/- 19 cms long.

Photo syntax edited to provide thumbnails by Admin-JS... click on them to see the photos full size...

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27001.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27001.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27003.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27003.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27004.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27004.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27005.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27005.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

John Sabato · 04-27-2004, 03:18 PM

Mark, What you have is a very nice Artillery Model Luger... in what appears to be very nice shape. It may be a commercial gun rather than military production, but it may have been pressed into military service...

Would it be possible for you to photograph the markings on the magazines?

Are the bottoms of the magazines made of wood or plastic?

Can you use a white grease pencil to fill in the stamps that are barely visible on the right side of the barrel in your last photo? and then rephotograph that area?

George Anderson · 04-27-2004, 03:35 PM

The holster may well be the most intriguing part of this set. Is the holster marked at all? May we see photos of the back of the holster?

Although very difficult to make out, the markings on the right hand side of the barrel seem to follow the pattern and flow one would expect with a British proofed pistol. Most "Brits" I have seen were along the bottum of the barrel.

The magazines appear to be post 1945. They seem to be plastic plugs. Damned if I have ever heard of a DWM marked mag.

Nice looking LP08.

John Sabato · 04-27-2004, 04:02 PM

Exactly my point on asking for additional photos of the mags George... This is an Interesting rig for sure... I look forward to additional photos if Mark can find the time.

I also can't quite tell if the gun has been reblued from these photos... the small parts look like they could be either blue or strawed...depending on the photograph.

For that matter, all of the accessories may turn out to be aftermarket things his Dad bought to go with his Luger...

MarkR · 04-28-2004, 03:52 AM

Hi there all. I had to borrow a friends digital to get better res pics so here goes.

The markings on the side of the barrel are as follows:
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/markings_1.jpg
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/markings_2.jpg

I can barely make out the markings under the barrel with the exception of the full serial number.

The back of the mag, not DWM (my mistake):
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mag_rear.jpg

There are no markings front, back or inside the holster. A request was made for the back of the holster:
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/holster_back.jpg

I took 2 further pics of the weapon:
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_rs.jpg
http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_ls.jpg

I hope these will suffice for all the questions asked. I'm mighty impressed and very grateful for the responses I've had so far. Thanks a mill.

Regards.

George Anderson · 04-28-2004, 08:10 AM

Mark, the pistol, at some time in the past, travelled through England and was proofed there. The pistol is an LP08 or Langepistole 1908. This model of Luger was issued to artillery and machinegun troops initially and later in 1917 was given to shock troops as well. 1917 is the most common date of LP08.

Very few LP08's saw service in WWII. Your grand dad probably picked this pistol up in England. The magazines are post WWII commercial jobs. The holster is non standard and very interesting. The holster may be worth as much as the pistol.

MarkR · 04-28-2004, 08:20 AM

Hi George

I have confirmation from my mother that my grandfather, then a captain in the British Army, picked the pistol up during WW I. He'd already moved to Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) when WW II broke out.

Thanks.

George Anderson · 04-28-2004, 08:27 AM

That explains it.

John Sabato · 04-28-2004, 10:51 AM

Hey Mark, Please do me a favor and replace your avatar with this photo where I have cropped out the white space... The extra space distorts the appearance of the page...

Thanks,

Doubs · 04-28-2004, 02:05 PM

Mark, the manufacturer's name on your magazine is "ERMA" and they have been in business in Germany for many years. IIRC, Erma made some of the first submachineguns used by the Germans in WW1... but don't quote me on that! I presently own an Erma ESP-85 target .22 that is of the highest quality and looks very much like earlier Hammerli target pistols.

I do agree though that the mags are likely later additions to the pistol and not WW1 or WW2 vintage.

MarkR · 04-28-2004, 02:59 PM

Thank you Doubs for the input regarding the mags and John for the cropped avatar (sorry about that). According to my family the holster, as far as their memory goes back has always been with the Luger. Poses a bit of an enigma in the sense that the leather use looks too "new" to date back that far. It is also a very very hard "stiff" leather. I have to push relatively hard to try and dent the side.

MarkR · 04-28-2004, 03:04 PM

Sorry guys. I meant to ask this in my previous reply. Anyone care to hazard a guess as to the value the pistol ?

George Anderson · 04-28-2004, 03:47 PM

Pistol $1200-$2000
Mags $48
Holster ?$500-$1200?

Mark, don't use any grease on the holster and don't store the pistol in the holster naked. Oil the pistol, put it in a poly bag or poly bread bag, wrap it tightly then stick it in the holster. Don't think of upgrading the pistol by having it reblued or "restored," it will quickly lose thirty percent of its value if you do.

MarkR · 04-28-2004, 04:02 PM

Thank you for the valuation. I now have to take the maximums you quoted and multiply by 6.7 to get to a value in our currency. My insurers are going to love me as I don't have any intention of selling.

Can anyone confirm or shoot down something I heard that one is able to write to the German archives should one want a history on the weapon ? If this is so can anyone point me into the right direction to start the enquiries ?

Reading through all the different posts on your forum I feel honoured to own such a weapon. It appears to generate a lot of enthusiasm. I have fired the pistol but with our standard 9 mm ammo the expended cartridge fails to clear the breech and jams with the live round half way into the chamber and the expended cartridge on the way out.

Another question I have is, in it's condition and with the apparent originality should I be using it as a shooter or should I rather find another Luger to use as a shooter.

If I may say I believe this pistol has me hooked and I hope to be around on this forum regularly in the future - especially considering I'm what you would class a newbie.

MarkR · 04-28-2004, 04:40 PM

I have an apology to make. TacFoley, on Gunboards.Com, pointed out I revise my story regarding how the pistol came into our family's possesion being that it had been through the Birmingham Proof House according to the markings. It was no intention of mine to mislead anyone as I can only quote what I was told.

One thing I can remeber about my grandfather is that he was a great leg puller and I can just imagine him having a quiet chuckle at spinning this yarn - something he took to the grave with him.

Doubs · 04-28-2004, 09:25 PM

tac, how did you acquire priceless American treasures of that sort? The last I'd heard, those are the exact items taken from the Capitol Building in 1814 when your hungry ancestors made a bonfire of ol' DC while roasting their bangers for supper. You can set the whole matter straight by leaving them to me in your will.

04-27-2004, 02:30 PM	#1
MarkR User Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1917 DWM Luger - Please help !!! I am clueless to what I've inherited. All I can say is that it originated from my grandfather, an officer in WW II. As the story goes it was taken from a fallen German officer on the battlefield. A story I can, in no way, verify. It has a 1917 year stamped on it behind the rear sight. Each part has 2 digits stamped on them which coincide with the serial number of 7293. It has a leather holster and two magazines. The leather holster is black with no discernible markings and the two magazines only have a "Made in Germany" DWM marking. The grips are made of wood and, as far as I know, there have been no mod's done to the weapon. It is still in, what I consider, an excellent and firing condition. There are 4 symbols on the right side of the breach and a series of characters and numbers on the right side of the barrel below the rear gunsight. All comments / observations will be greatly appreciated. (I could add photo's if I knew how). Any comment will be greatly appreciated.

04-27-2004, 03:05 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Mark, there is a fine tutorial on uploading photos into your message posts at the top of the message thread list in the Site Help & Feedback Forum... If you read that and are familiar with Microsoft Windows and browsing the Internet, then you should be able to upload photos without too much trouble... But, if after reading the tutorial, you still can't upload photos, please let us know and someone will be glad to help you throught the upload photo process. Some additional questions in the mean time... The barrel length is determined by inserting a cleaning rod until it touches the bolt face (with the toggle down) and marking the cleaning rod at the muzzle... then remove the cleaning rod and measure the distanct from the mark to the tip of the rod...Is the rear sight in front of the chamber? or on the rearmost part of the toggle? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-27-2004, 03:18 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Mark, What you have is a very nice Artillery Model Luger... in what appears to be very nice shape. It may be a commercial gun rather than military production, but it may have been pressed into military service... Would it be possible for you to photograph the markings on the magazines? Are the bottoms of the magazines made of wood or plastic? Can you use a white grease pencil to fill in the stamps that are barely visible on the right side of the barrel in your last photo? and then rephotograph that area? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-27-2004, 04:02 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Exactly my point on asking for additional photos of the mags George... This is an Interesting rig for sure... I look forward to additional photos if Mark can find the time. I also can't quite tell if the gun has been reblued from these photos... the small parts look like they could be either blue or strawed...depending on the photograph. For that matter, all of the accessories may turn out to be aftermarket things his Dad bought to go with his Luger... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-28-2004, 10:51 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Hey Mark, Please do me a favor and replace your avatar with this photo where I have cropped out the white space... The extra space distorts the appearance of the page... Thanks, __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-27-2004, 02:51 PM	#2
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Mark...I would love to help you but a bit confused...."1917 year stamped on it behind the rear sight"...."on the right side of the barrel below the rear gunsight"...are you looking at this correct?. Are the mag bottoms aluminum or wood, why do you say this is a DWM marking?...look under holster flap and on back, look real good but you should find some mark, anything would help is answering you questions...and a picture or two would really help...

04-27-2004, 02:57 PM	#3
Lugerlover User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 78 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Mark, How long is the barrel. If the date is behind the rear sight, it sounds like an artillery model. Best Regards, Bill

04-27-2004, 03:09 PM	#5
MarkR User Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Between the rear sight and forward of the breach is stamped 1917. The mags are of aluminium with a DWM and Made in Germany stamp ( No serial number ). The barrel is +/- 19 cms long. Photo syntax edited to provide thumbnails by Admin-JS... click on them to see the photos full size... <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27001.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27001.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27003.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27003.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27004.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27004.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27005.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/apr27005.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

04-27-2004, 03:35 PM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	The holster may well be the most intriguing part of this set. Is the holster marked at all? May we see photos of the back of the holster? Although very difficult to make out, the markings on the right hand side of the barrel seem to follow the pattern and flow one would expect with a British proofed pistol. Most "Brits" I have seen were along the bottum of the barrel. The magazines appear to be post 1945. They seem to be plastic plugs. Damned if I have ever heard of a DWM marked mag. Nice looking LP08.

04-28-2004, 03:52 AM	#9
MarkR User Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi there all. I had to borrow a friends digital to get better res pics so here goes. The markings on the side of the barrel are as follows: http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/markings_1.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/markings_2.jpg I can barely make out the markings under the barrel with the exception of the full serial number. The back of the mag, not DWM (my mistake): http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mag_rear.jpg There are no markings front, back or inside the holster. A request was made for the back of the holster: http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/holster_back.jpg I took 2 further pics of the weapon: http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_rs.jpg http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/luger_ls.jpg I hope these will suffice for all the questions asked. I'm mighty impressed and very grateful for the responses I've had so far. Thanks a mill. Regards.

04-28-2004, 08:10 AM	#10
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	Mark, the pistol, at some time in the past, travelled through England and was proofed there. The pistol is an LP08 or Langepistole 1908. This model of Luger was issued to artillery and machinegun troops initially and later in 1917 was given to shock troops as well. 1917 is the most common date of LP08. Very few LP08's saw service in WWII. Your grand dad probably picked this pistol up in England. The magazines are post WWII commercial jobs. The holster is non standard and very interesting. The holster may be worth as much as the pistol.

04-28-2004, 08:20 AM	#11
MarkR User Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi George I have confirmation from my mother that my grandfather, then a captain in the British Army, picked the pistol up during WW I. He'd already moved to Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) when WW II broke out. Thanks.

04-28-2004, 08:27 AM	#12
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	That explains it.

04-28-2004, 02:05 PM	#14
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,694 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,676 Times in 550 Posts	Mark, the manufacturer's name on your magazine is "ERMA" and they have been in business in Germany for many years. IIRC, Erma made some of the first submachineguns used by the Germans in WW1... but don't quote me on that! I presently own an Erma ESP-85 target .22 that is of the highest quality and looks very much like earlier Hammerli target pistols. I do agree though that the mags are likely later additions to the pistol and not WW1 or WW2 vintage.

04-28-2004, 02:59 PM	#15
MarkR User Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you Doubs for the input regarding the mags and John for the cropped avatar (sorry about that). According to my family the holster, as far as their memory goes back has always been with the Luger. Poses a bit of an enigma in the sense that the leather use looks too "new" to date back that far. It is also a very very hard "stiff" leather. I have to push relatively hard to try and dent the side.

04-28-2004, 03:04 PM	#16
MarkR User Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry guys. I meant to ask this in my previous reply. Anyone care to hazard a guess as to the value the pistol ?

04-28-2004, 03:47 PM	#17
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	Pistol $1200-$2000 Mags $48 Holster ?$500-$1200? Mark, don't use any grease on the holster and don't store the pistol in the holster naked. Oil the pistol, put it in a poly bag or poly bread bag, wrap it tightly then stick it in the holster. Don't think of upgrading the pistol by having it reblued or "restored," it will quickly lose thirty percent of its value if you do.

04-28-2004, 04:02 PM	#18
MarkR User Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you for the valuation. I now have to take the maximums you quoted and multiply by 6.7 to get to a value in our currency. My insurers are going to love me as I don't have any intention of selling. Can anyone confirm or shoot down something I heard that one is able to write to the German archives should one want a history on the weapon ? If this is so can anyone point me into the right direction to start the enquiries ? Reading through all the different posts on your forum I feel honoured to own such a weapon. It appears to generate a lot of enthusiasm. I have fired the pistol but with our standard 9 mm ammo the expended cartridge fails to clear the breech and jams with the live round half way into the chamber and the expended cartridge on the way out. Another question I have is, in it's condition and with the apparent originality should I be using it as a shooter or should I rather find another Luger to use as a shooter. If I may say I believe this pistol has me hooked and I hope to be around on this forum regularly in the future - especially considering I'm what you would class a newbie.

04-28-2004, 04:40 PM	#19
MarkR User Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have an apology to make. TacFoley, on Gunboards.Com, pointed out I revise my story regarding how the pistol came into our family's possesion being that it had been through the Birmingham Proof House according to the markings. It was no intention of mine to mislead anyone as I can only quote what I was told. One thing I can remeber about my grandfather is that he was a great leg puller and I can just imagine him having a quiet chuckle at spinning this yarn - something he took to the grave with him.

04-28-2004, 09:25 PM	#20
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,694 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,676 Times in 550 Posts	tac, how did you acquire priceless American treasures of that sort? The last I'd heard, those are the exact items taken from the Capitol Building in 1814 when your hungry ancestors made a bonfire of ol' DC while roasting their bangers for supper. You can set the whole matter straight by leaving them to me in your will.