Reno Gun Show Report...

Pete Ebbink · 08-18-2002, 02:00 AM

Lugers, lugers everywhere...!

Nearly 1,000 tables and easily over 125 lugers on display and/or for sale.

Folks with lugers included Doug Smith/Chris Clark, Mike Chance, Bill Christensen, Bob Lewis, Ralph Shattuck, Bob Young, Randy Bessler, and many other smaller tables with 2-3 up to 5-6 lugers at hand.

Forum members who met on Saturday at 12 noon included Herb Keister, Dr. Herb Fisher, Jim Ferreira, Jim Elson, Russ Withem, and me.

Had a nice visit, got to shake hands, and chat lugers; and we all had a chance to hold the .45 luger carbine.

The highlights of this trip for me were (in no particular order of importance) :

1. Meeting and getting to chat Swiss lugers with Mr. Bob Lewis.

2. Adding a nice mid-series, S-code Krieghoff luger (serial # 2122) to my little, growing collection. If time allows on Sunday, I will post some photos...

3. Showing Herb Keister a nice little Simpson & Co/SUHL luger for $ 375.00; which he did pick up.

4. Getting a chance to see the .45 DWM carbine (serial # 21), first hand.

5. Finding out Jim Elson bought that nice 1917 DWM arty from Mike Chance (what a nice arty...and fine-tuned front sights, even...!!!)

6. Seeing a really nice John Martz .45 artillery luger.

7. Finding a really nice fellow named Walt Krammer who has bottom-less luger parts bins, who can find almost anything you need as long as you do not request specific serial number stampings...(hurray !)

8. Having a nice dinner with the Shattuck's and Dr. Fisher !

I think this show is worth doing at least once year...

<img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Brandon · 08-19-2002, 09:31 AM

Let's see some pics of that Kreig!

Jimbo · 08-19-2002, 05:44 PM

Hi Pete,

It was great meeting you, Herb, Jim and Russ.

My brother was disappointed with the lack of 1911s but Lugers were everywhere, including the "million-dollar" carbine. That Swiss Luger display was a thing of beauty and I stared at it quite a while.

I am afraid I didn't take the opportunity to meet and chat with the many fine Luger enthusiasts at the show. But I did talk with Doug Smith and his son Chris Clark for a few hours. They invested me with dozens of Luger tips from the Krieghoff thumbprint to the bluing underneath an original Navy sight (although I must apologize to Doug that I still don't understand if it should be whiter and less blue or darker with heavy blue?)

I went to the show determined to buy a low-end shooter for Ted to restore. So it is no surprise I ended up buying a G-code from Doug Smith, with the brightest rust-blueing I have seen on a Mauser. Early "b" block and very pretty. Thank you Doug.

Again, great meeting you Pete, Herb and Jim. I look forward to seeing you again as well as other friends from the lugerforum.

Jim Ferreira

Lodi Jim · 08-21-2002, 07:01 PM

I have to "ditto" the comments of Pete and Jim.

It was particulary interesting to me to see how the pros looked at our newly acquired finds. I wanted a 1915 Artillery on Bill Christensen's table and he asked if I had anything to trade. I showed him a 1920 I just traded a Colt for and he, ever so politely, told me he couldn't use a reblue. That was with his naked eye. Another person showed him his newly purchased Luger and was told the same thing.

Having two of us standing there made me feel only half stupid!

The second guys' was a better rebluing than mine, as Bill had to use his loupe to tell. He then gave us a five minute lesson on what marks where supposed to be where and what parts should be white and which are blued. Interesting.

Pete, I noticed you carried a loupe with you. Assuming I can learn what I'm looking for, where do you get them and what power is needed?

Last thought for Brandon. I know what you meant about holding the 45 Carbine. Ralph made the comment about "drop it, it's yours" just as he handed it to me. Makes you a little nervous doesn't it?

It was a great day, good to meet all you guys - let's do it again.

Jim

Pete Ebbink · 08-21-2002, 07:48 PM

Hello Jim,

1. I picked up my 10x loupe at my local hobby shop. I also got a 20x unit, but I like the 10x much better. I think I paid $ 25.00 or so.

I also carried a small mag-light and a bore light, since the lighting at most gun shows reminds me of the lighting in Home Depot or Costco's (i.e. that metal halide "white" lighting that is normally used in outdoor parking lots).

I also carry a very nice, wide blade screw driver. If the Owner will not allow me to fully disassemble the luger or will not do it himself; I will not even consider buying it.

And finally, I had more than 10 luger books out in my truck; in case I needed a library reference.

2. Without naming names, I did see one fellow take a luger to Bill Christensen, Doug Smith, Ralph Shattuck, and maybe others. The owner was hoping to sell or trade the luger in question. The "verdicts" from these three, knowledgable dealers ranged from "100% original" to "total restoration" to "maybe the sideplates has had some re-blue". Please note the names of the dealers and the order of their comments are not related and I will not tell.

Just using this incident as an example of :

a. Same gun, totally different assessments from the "pros".

b. I suspect some dealers at shows "hope" to discourage a guy that brings in a luger to sell/trade so the owner will take a "low ball" offer for his piece. And then that gun can be re-sold at a bigger profit margin...

Just my opinion, of course !!!

Pete

Herb · 08-21-2002, 08:55 PM

I have to echo the comments of the others before me, it was by far the biggest show I have ever been to. I arrived on thursday and hit the show shortly after opening on Friday and left around 1 PM on Saturday and still had not seen everything! I enjoyed meeting some of the Forum members there and getting the chance to hold and inspect that 45 carbine. My feet were killing me, literally thousands of guns, and hundreds of Lugers. Got a nice commercial sideplate from Russ Withem, also a Forum member, and thanks to Pete for taking me to that Simpson rework which is now the showpiece of my 'shooters', 100% matching (less mag) and stamped and proofed everywhere in the Erfurt fashion, even the grips are numbered and proofed, grips screws are proofed too. It's hard to believe that someone would black chrome such an example, but for the price I am not complaining. As a result of this purchase I have decided that my collecting goal is to get one example of each manufacturer, anyone have a shooter Spandau for sale, say, around $400 or so, also need a Vickers and Bern.

Lugerdoc · 08-22-2002, 09:06 AM

Jim E, Did you notice that ALL of the lugers on Bill C's table have at least 99% perfect blue? If he only buys perfectly finished lugers, more power to him, but it always makes be wonder.

drbuster · 08-22-2002, 02:56 PM

I agree with Pete Ebbink and Lugerdoc's comments as I was intimately involved with what was said!!!

Lodi Jim · 08-23-2002, 01:31 AM

Pete, Herb, Lugerdoc and Herb - thanks for the thought provoking ideas. Once again, I feel like a neophyte (itÃ¢??s no wonder). LukeÃ¢??s post of August 6 posed, a great question about bluing. Even though I heard what to look for in Reno, could someone explain it again in a similar way to how Jan explained the physical characteristics of the various proofs? IÃ¢??ve read somewhere the appearance of rust vs salt; original vs rebluing. WhatÃ¢??s blued and whatÃ¢??s polished? If itÃ¢??s already on the Forum, could someone please furnish a reference point?

As a side note, IÃ¢??ve been looking at a 1916 Arty in a neighboring town for about two months. Today, armed with my newly purchased loupe (thanks Pete), copy of Proof marks from Random and my trusty bore light I spent an hour dissecting this piece. It had matching numbers, except for magazine and bluing was relatively good. What was a deal killer was light pitting on the frame and back sights. It also seemed a bit pricey at $1,675. A month ago I probably would have purchased it, only to have to add it to my Ã¢??shooterÃ¢?Â list (described by my son as the oneÃ¢??s I got taken on).

Anyway, the money I saved can go toward my Ã¢??14 Erfurt Arty Ã¢?? when I find one.

Jim

Russ · 08-23-2002, 07:26 AM

I realy enjoyed meeting everyone. It was a very good show for me. I can't wait for the November show.

Russ

Pete Ebbink · 08-23-2002, 12:53 PM

Hello Jim,

Since this "Reno" thread is quite long now and some folks are probably thinking it is old news, you might want to start a new thread in the Artillery section and ask about authentic Arty features...

Regards,

Pete...

Lodi Jim · 08-23-2002, 02:16 PM

Thanks Pete, good idea. I'll do it this weekend (or later today, if time permits).

08-18-2002, 02:00 AM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Reno Gun Show Report... Lugers, lugers everywhere...! Nearly 1,000 tables and easily over 125 lugers on display and/or for sale. Folks with lugers included Doug Smith/Chris Clark, Mike Chance, Bill Christensen, Bob Lewis, Ralph Shattuck, Bob Young, Randy Bessler, and many other smaller tables with 2-3 up to 5-6 lugers at hand. Forum members who met on Saturday at 12 noon included Herb Keister, Dr. Herb Fisher, Jim Ferreira, Jim Elson, Russ Withem, and me. Had a nice visit, got to shake hands, and chat lugers; and we all had a chance to hold the .45 luger carbine. The highlights of this trip for me were (in no particular order of importance) : 1. Meeting and getting to chat Swiss lugers with Mr. Bob Lewis. 2. Adding a nice mid-series, S-code Krieghoff luger (serial # 2122) to my little, growing collection. If time allows on Sunday, I will post some photos... 3. Showing Herb Keister a nice little Simpson & Co/SUHL luger for $ 375.00; which he did pick up. 4. Getting a chance to see the .45 DWM carbine (serial # 21), first hand. 5. Finding out Jim Elson bought that nice 1917 DWM arty from Mike Chance (what a nice arty...and fine-tuned front sights, even...!!!) 6. Seeing a really nice John Martz .45 artillery luger. 7. Finding a really nice fellow named Walt Krammer who has bottom-less luger parts bins, who can find almost anything you need as long as you do not request specific serial number stampings...(hurray !) 8. Having a nice dinner with the Shattuck's and Dr. Fisher ! I think this show is worth doing at least once year... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-21-2002, 08:55 PM	#6
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have to echo the comments of the others before me, it was by far the biggest show I have ever been to. I arrived on thursday and hit the show shortly after opening on Friday and left around 1 PM on Saturday and still had not seen everything! I enjoyed meeting some of the Forum members there and getting the chance to hold and inspect that 45 carbine. My feet were killing me, literally thousands of guns, and hundreds of Lugers. Got a nice commercial sideplate from Russ Withem, also a Forum member, and thanks to Pete for taking me to that Simpson rework which is now the showpiece of my 'shooters', 100% matching (less mag) and stamped and proofed everywhere in the Erfurt fashion, even the grips are numbered and proofed, grips screws are proofed too. It's hard to believe that someone would black chrome such an example, but for the price I am not complaining. As a result of this purchase I have decided that my collecting goal is to get one example of each manufacturer, anyone have a shooter Spandau for sale, say, around $400 or so, also need a Vickers and Bern. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-22-2002, 09:06 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Jim E, Did you notice that ALL of the lugers on Bill C's table have at least 99% perfect blue? If he only buys perfectly finished lugers, more power to him, but it always makes be wonder. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-23-2002, 07:26 AM	#10
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	I realy enjoyed meeting everyone. It was a very good show for me. I can't wait for the November show. Russ __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!

08-19-2002, 09:31 AM	#2
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Let's see some pics of that Kreig!

08-19-2002, 05:44 PM	#3
Jimbo User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SF CA Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Pete, It was great meeting you, Herb, Jim and Russ. My brother was disappointed with the lack of 1911s but Lugers were everywhere, including the "million-dollar" carbine. That Swiss Luger display was a thing of beauty and I stared at it quite a while. I am afraid I didn't take the opportunity to meet and chat with the many fine Luger enthusiasts at the show. But I did talk with Doug Smith and his son Chris Clark for a few hours. They invested me with dozens of Luger tips from the Krieghoff thumbprint to the bluing underneath an original Navy sight (although I must apologize to Doug that I still don't understand if it should be whiter and less blue or darker with heavy blue?) I went to the show determined to buy a low-end shooter for Ted to restore. So it is no surprise I ended up buying a G-code from Doug Smith, with the brightest rust-blueing I have seen on a Mauser. Early "b" block and very pretty. Thank you Doug. Again, great meeting you Pete, Herb and Jim. I look forward to seeing you again as well as other friends from the lugerforum. Jim Ferreira

08-21-2002, 07:01 PM	#4
Lodi Jim User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: California Posts: 65 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have to "ditto" the comments of Pete and Jim. It was particulary interesting to me to see how the pros looked at our newly acquired finds. I wanted a 1915 Artillery on Bill Christensen's table and he asked if I had anything to trade. I showed him a 1920 I just traded a Colt for and he, ever so politely, told me he couldn't use a reblue. That was with his naked eye. Another person showed him his newly purchased Luger and was told the same thing. Having two of us standing there made me feel only half stupid! The second guys' was a better rebluing than mine, as Bill had to use his loupe to tell. He then gave us a five minute lesson on what marks where supposed to be where and what parts should be white and which are blued. Interesting. Pete, I noticed you carried a loupe with you. Assuming I can learn what I'm looking for, where do you get them and what power is needed? Last thought for Brandon. I know what you meant about holding the 45 Carbine. Ralph made the comment about "drop it, it's yours" just as he handed it to me. Makes you a little nervous doesn't it? It was a great day, good to meet all you guys - let's do it again. Jim

08-21-2002, 07:48 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Jim, 1. I picked up my 10x loupe at my local hobby shop. I also got a 20x unit, but I like the 10x much better. I think I paid $ 25.00 or so. I also carried a small mag-light and a bore light, since the lighting at most gun shows reminds me of the lighting in Home Depot or Costco's (i.e. that metal halide "white" lighting that is normally used in outdoor parking lots). I also carry a very nice, wide blade screw driver. If the Owner will not allow me to fully disassemble the luger or will not do it himself; I will not even consider buying it. And finally, I had more than 10 luger books out in my truck; in case I needed a library reference. 2. Without naming names, I did see one fellow take a luger to Bill Christensen, Doug Smith, Ralph Shattuck, and maybe others. The owner was hoping to sell or trade the luger in question. The "verdicts" from these three, knowledgable dealers ranged from "100% original" to "total restoration" to "maybe the sideplates has had some re-blue". Please note the names of the dealers and the order of their comments are not related and I will not tell. Just using this incident as an example of : a. Same gun, totally different assessments from the "pros". b. I suspect some dealers at shows "hope" to discourage a guy that brings in a luger to sell/trade so the owner will take a "low ball" offer for his piece. And then that gun can be re-sold at a bigger profit margin... Just my opinion, of course !!! Pete

08-22-2002, 02:56 PM	#8
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	I agree with Pete Ebbink and Lugerdoc's comments as I was intimately involved with what was said!!!

08-23-2002, 01:31 AM	#9
Lodi Jim User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: California Posts: 65 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete, Herb, Lugerdoc and Herb - thanks for the thought provoking ideas. Once again, I feel like a neophyte (itÃ¢??s no wonder). LukeÃ¢??s post of August 6 posed, a great question about bluing. Even though I heard what to look for in Reno, could someone explain it again in a similar way to how Jan explained the physical characteristics of the various proofs? IÃ¢??ve read somewhere the appearance of rust vs salt; original vs rebluing. WhatÃ¢??s blued and whatÃ¢??s polished? If itÃ¢??s already on the Forum, could someone please furnish a reference point? As a side note, IÃ¢??ve been looking at a 1916 Arty in a neighboring town for about two months. Today, armed with my newly purchased loupe (thanks Pete), copy of Proof marks from Random and my trusty bore light I spent an hour dissecting this piece. It had matching numbers, except for magazine and bluing was relatively good. What was a deal killer was light pitting on the frame and back sights. It also seemed a bit pricey at $1,675. A month ago I probably would have purchased it, only to have to add it to my Ã¢??shooterÃ¢?Â list (described by my son as the oneÃ¢??s I got taken on). Anyway, the money I saved can go toward my Ã¢??14 Erfurt Arty Ã¢?? when I find one. Jim

08-23-2002, 12:53 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Jim, Since this "Reno" thread is quite long now and some folks are probably thinking it is old news, you might want to start a new thread in the Artillery section and ask about authentic Arty features... Regards, Pete...

08-23-2002, 02:16 PM	#12
Lodi Jim User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: California Posts: 65 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks Pete, good idea. I'll do it this weekend (or later today, if time permits).