Matching Magazines - Page 2

Doubs · 10-15-2002, 11:44 AM

A couple of comments. First, I've had a few East German reworks pass through my hands and most have had two matching mags that were obviously not original to the pistols. I still have two; one as it came from the distributor and the other I had Hugh rebarrel to .30 Luger. The first one is an Erfurt with a replacement sideplate while all else matches. The two mags are matching but one has a high zinc content in the base as it's a dull color. The other mag has a bright aluminum base. The numbers stamped into the bases are larger and heavier than those on the gun. The second one has only one matching mag now and I believe the second mag may have been in the Finnish Luger I sold a few years back. (The Finn didn't have a mag when I got it.)

I've known my share of WW2 vets over the years and in numerous discussions with them it's clear that what was true for one vet wasn't necessarily true for the others. A machinegunner with the 42nd "Rainbow" Division told me he had captured a pristine Luger and was required to turn it in to the Quarter Master section. It "disappeared" and he believed the QM Sgt. stole it as he'd tried to buy it more than once. Those lucky enough to get their guns returned didn't get them until they reached stateside.

My neighbor, a vet of the 17th Airborne, could have mailed his guns back. He was going to mail an MP-40 but couldn't find a suitable box and didn't want to continue carrying it. He threw it away.

Perhaps by the war's end, the Army had standardized procedures for vets bringing back guns but it seems to have varied by unit to some degree.

MauserLugers · 10-15-2002, 12:38 PM

Hi,
As some of you may know, I mainly collect Lugers with 2 matching magazines. Jan Still is most certainly correct with his comments on matching magazines. Very few have the correct, original issued magazine. In other words, most matching two magazine rigs are FAKED.

The true, original rigs are drying up and are almost impossible to find these days, even with all the vets passing on.

And Tom A, they do FAKE the wood bottom Imperial navy magazines also.

I think most of the two matching magazine Lugers you find today have gone through a re-issue here in the states. There are people who study the magazine bases and that is what you need to do to protect yourself from being taken. The faked ones are sometimes easy to tell if you know the correct acceptance marks, pins and color of the pins, type of tubes, and ect. Trouble is the guys faking these also all know this and it is becoming harder and harder to tell the true examples from the really good faked ones. The good thing is that not too many of these guys are capable of doing this kind of work.

Another point of interest is the blank bottom magazines. You just do not find them anymore. The blank aluminium bottoms are the ideal item for these craftsmen as they do not have to do anything to them. The dies have been available for numerous years.

The only advice one can suggest is that you study and learn your stuff. Anytime you find a Luger with a matching magazine and especially two matching magazines, you had better give it an extra examination. Also, if both magazines are correct, you are going to pay a huge premium, which makes it especially tempting for the fakers.

Here is an example of a 1939 Banner E/C that I bought from a well known dealer about 10 years ago. It had two matching HS magazines with the blue tubes and the side logo's and convex pinned. The "W" on the base did not look correct to me, and the serial numbers looked to be a little smaller than normal, had 1 and 2, and had the E/C of the police on the base. I kept the Luger as I need that variation, but never felt the magazines were correct. Don Hallock produces a magazine list and on one of the lists, there was a blue rolled police magazine with #2 on it, my serial number, and the correct "W". I quickly disposed of the two HS magazines. The sad part of this story is that someone had taken two nice blank HS convex pinned, side logo magazines and ruined them. You guys have to start thinking that very few in the collecting business do it for the love of collecting, and the majority are in it strictly for the money. There are some good ones out there, but they are hard to find. Doug Smith of Portsmouth, Ohio has treated me especially well, to mention one. Good collecting and keep you guard up!

Navy · 10-15-2002, 12:40 PM

To George Anderson,

Yep I know the guy, regrettably. He is the one that when ever you mention his name to someone else who knows him, the reply is ALWAYS the same sentiment"What an A##hole!"

Tom A.

John Sabato · 10-15-2002, 02:06 PM

Would this be the guy & the gunshop with the poorly engraved set of Artillery Lugers, and a Navy Luger (or maybe it was one Artillery and two Navy's) all with poorly fitted ivory grips that the seller says once belonged to a German general and his brother ? [img]eek.gif[/img] and the asking price is about half the national debt?

Been there... seen that... what a crying shame and waste of three otherwise historical guns.

(Not General DWM Thor!)

George Anderson · 10-15-2002, 02:33 PM

John, no that would be Bob at the Powder Horn who is a Stand-Up guy. The fellow in the discussion is the shop east of him on Main Street. His name rhymes with one of the more common synonyms for rubber as used in locker room slang.

Bob told me on the phone about the "Mexican" engraved jobs he has on consignment and bemoaned the fact that the perpetrator had to do this to long barrels and a navy of all pieces.

He also indicated that the price reflected the stupidity of someone who would ruin these pistols. As I recall his goal in the transaction was some civil War gear that the "perp" had.

John Sabato · 10-15-2002, 03:12 PM

thanks for the clarification George... You really have to see those engraved Lugers to feel the depth of the loss and damage... but make sure you haven't eaten first.

Doubs · 10-15-2002, 05:32 PM

John S., do you ever find anything at the Clark Brothers outside of Warrenton? I've stopped there a few times over the years on my way to MD but they didn't have any Lugers.

Heinz · 10-15-2002, 05:59 PM

Policeluger, I would would trust your collection :-) But not everybody's.

Dwight, you started a great rabbit with this thread.

kind regards, Heinz

John Sabato · 10-16-2002, 11:12 AM

Doubs, I have never stopped there but will the next time I pass through that area... I'll let you know if they have anything of interest.

10-15-2002, 02:06 PM	#24
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Would this be the guy & the gunshop with the poorly engraved set of Artillery Lugers, and a Navy Luger (or maybe it was one Artillery and two Navy's) all with poorly fitted ivory grips that the seller says once belonged to a German general and his brother ? [img]eek.gif[/img] and the asking price is about half the national debt? Been there... seen that... what a crying shame and waste of three otherwise historical guns. (Not General DWM Thor!) __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-15-2002, 03:12 PM	#26
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	thanks for the clarification George... You really have to see those engraved Lugers to feel the depth of the loss and damage... but make sure you haven't eaten first. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-16-2002, 11:12 AM	#29
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Doubs, I have never stopped there but will the next time I pass through that area... I'll let you know if they have anything of interest. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-15-2002, 11:44 AM	#21
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	A couple of comments. First, I've had a few East German reworks pass through my hands and most have had two matching mags that were obviously not original to the pistols. I still have two; one as it came from the distributor and the other I had Hugh rebarrel to .30 Luger. The first one is an Erfurt with a replacement sideplate while all else matches. The two mags are matching but one has a high zinc content in the base as it's a dull color. The other mag has a bright aluminum base. The numbers stamped into the bases are larger and heavier than those on the gun. The second one has only one matching mag now and I believe the second mag may have been in the Finnish Luger I sold a few years back. (The Finn didn't have a mag when I got it.) I've known my share of WW2 vets over the years and in numerous discussions with them it's clear that what was true for one vet wasn't necessarily true for the others. A machinegunner with the 42nd "Rainbow" Division told me he had captured a pristine Luger and was required to turn it in to the Quarter Master section. It "disappeared" and he believed the QM Sgt. stole it as he'd tried to buy it more than once. Those lucky enough to get their guns returned didn't get them until they reached stateside. My neighbor, a vet of the 17th Airborne, could have mailed his guns back. He was going to mail an MP-40 but couldn't find a suitable box and didn't want to continue carrying it. He threw it away. Perhaps by the war's end, the Army had standardized procedures for vets bringing back guns but it seems to have varied by unit to some degree.

10-15-2002, 12:38 PM	#22
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, As some of you may know, I mainly collect Lugers with 2 matching magazines. Jan Still is most certainly correct with his comments on matching magazines. Very few have the correct, original issued magazine. In other words, most matching two magazine rigs are FAKED. The true, original rigs are drying up and are almost impossible to find these days, even with all the vets passing on. And Tom A, they do FAKE the wood bottom Imperial navy magazines also. I think most of the two matching magazine Lugers you find today have gone through a re-issue here in the states. There are people who study the magazine bases and that is what you need to do to protect yourself from being taken. The faked ones are sometimes easy to tell if you know the correct acceptance marks, pins and color of the pins, type of tubes, and ect. Trouble is the guys faking these also all know this and it is becoming harder and harder to tell the true examples from the really good faked ones. The good thing is that not too many of these guys are capable of doing this kind of work. Another point of interest is the blank bottom magazines. You just do not find them anymore. The blank aluminium bottoms are the ideal item for these craftsmen as they do not have to do anything to them. The dies have been available for numerous years. The only advice one can suggest is that you study and learn your stuff. Anytime you find a Luger with a matching magazine and especially two matching magazines, you had better give it an extra examination. Also, if both magazines are correct, you are going to pay a huge premium, which makes it especially tempting for the fakers. Here is an example of a 1939 Banner E/C that I bought from a well known dealer about 10 years ago. It had two matching HS magazines with the blue tubes and the side logo's and convex pinned. The "W" on the base did not look correct to me, and the serial numbers looked to be a little smaller than normal, had 1 and 2, and had the E/C of the police on the base. I kept the Luger as I need that variation, but never felt the magazines were correct. Don Hallock produces a magazine list and on one of the lists, there was a blue rolled police magazine with #2 on it, my serial number, and the correct "W". I quickly disposed of the two HS magazines. The sad part of this story is that someone had taken two nice blank HS convex pinned, side logo magazines and ruined them. You guys have to start thinking that very few in the collecting business do it for the love of collecting, and the majority are in it strictly for the money. There are some good ones out there, but they are hard to find. Doug Smith of Portsmouth, Ohio has treated me especially well, to mention one. Good collecting and keep you guard up!

10-15-2002, 12:40 PM	#23
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	To George Anderson, Yep I know the guy, regrettably. He is the one that when ever you mention his name to someone else who knows him, the reply is ALWAYS the same sentiment"What an A##hole!" Tom A.

10-15-2002, 02:33 PM	#25
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	John, no that would be Bob at the Powder Horn who is a Stand-Up guy. The fellow in the discussion is the shop east of him on Main Street. His name rhymes with one of the more common synonyms for rubber as used in locker room slang. Bob told me on the phone about the "Mexican" engraved jobs he has on consignment and bemoaned the fact that the perpetrator had to do this to long barrels and a navy of all pieces. He also indicated that the price reflected the stupidity of someone who would ruin these pistols. As I recall his goal in the transaction was some civil War gear that the "perp" had.

10-15-2002, 05:32 PM	#27
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	John S., do you ever find anything at the Clark Brothers outside of Warrenton? I've stopped there a few times over the years on my way to MD but they didn't have any Lugers.

10-15-2002, 05:59 PM	#28
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 411 Times in 180 Posts	Policeluger, I would would trust your collection :-) But not everybody's. Dwight, you started a great rabbit with this thread. kind regards, Heinz