dutch luger

joshua · 04-14-2003, 02:42 AM

Hi,
My name is Joshua Winoto, my luger is featured in the Old corner's page, under the name "dutch luger'. I noticed that there is someone also owned an almost identical luger on the member's gallery, page 2, under the name 'Dutch M11 Luger'. The owner stated that the luger was bought from Netherdland. Is there anyway that I can contact him?
Or is there anyone who could help me in identifying my luger? Mine is an Indonesian army luger, but Indonesia was under dutch occupation for a long time and I belive my luger should originated from the dutch army as well, they used to call it the 'vicker'.
The gun is virtually identical with mine and his was formely of Indonesian army, too.
Please help

Thank You
Regards,
Joshua Winoto

Edward Tinker · 04-14-2003, 03:07 AM

Joshua, good to hear from you again!

I am sure that whomever is the owner of the Dutch M11 Luger will contact you.

Ed

JohnF · 04-14-2003, 05:42 AM

Hi Joshua,
I also have a Dutch M11 Luger. It's not the one in the member gallery but it is marked to the Dutch Indonesian Army. I'd be happy to help you if I can.
Cheers,
John

Ron Wood · 04-14-2003, 10:18 AM

Joshua,

You have a very nice example of the 1928 Dutch contract Luger. It is marked on the right side of the receiver with a KL inside a circle. This is generally accepted to be read as KOL for KoloniÃ?Â«n, or Ã¢??coloniesÃ¢?Â. The Ã¢??49Ã¢?Â markings on your Luger are the last two digits of the serial number and will be found on various small parts. There is a date marking on the top of the barrel just forward of the receiver. It is difficult to tell from the photo, but it appears to be Ã¢??1936Ã¢?Â. This indicates the date that the barrel was placed into service. In other words, this is the last time the weapon was arsenal re-worked and a new barrel was installed.

The brass plate on the left side of the frame is a property mark. The Ã¢??Dep MÃ¢?Â, as well as I can interpret it, stands for the Ã¢??Depot Company of the Garrison Battalion, Southern and Eastern Areas of BorneoÃ¢?Â (depotcompagnie garnizoensbataljon zuider- en oosterafdeling Borneo). The number 54 is the weapon property number.

The serial number range for the 1928 contract is 10182 to 14001. Your Luger should fall within that range. The official Dutch designation for the Luger is "M11" as 1911 was the date of the first contract for the Luger as a standard sidearm for the Netherlands.

Most of this information was obtained from Ã¢??The Dutch Luger (Parabellum) Ã¢?? A Complete HistoryÃ¢?Â, a most excellent reference written by Bas J. Martens and Guus de Vries (1994). I hope it answers some of the questions you have concerning your fine Luger.

Ron

Lugerdoc · 04-14-2003, 10:28 AM

Ron, I agree. The info in Martens & de Vries book is exc. I still have a couple of new copies available @$50 post paid in the US. Tom H.

joshua · 04-15-2003, 01:06 AM

Hi Edward, John, Ron and Lugerdoc,

Thank you all so much for yr info and help. Ron's description of the luger is very very helpful. I have been trying to identified my luger for sometime, until I saw the almost identical luger in the member's gallery.
It is extremely difficult to get any luger parts here in Indonesia.
I was really surprised and delighted by Ron's description of the marking 'DEPT M', his description explains everything. I used to think that Dept M stands for some no longer valid Indonesian Army Dept, but after looking at the other dutch luger in the member's gallery, I came to the conclusion that the brass plate was not attached by the Indonesian army, it was attached by the Dutch as the other luger has the same plate but diffrent markings.

Thank You all so much
Joshua

Dwight Gruber · 04-15-2003, 02:05 AM

Joshua,

There is one thing to add to Ron's identification of your M-11 Luger. There is a 5-pointed star stamped above the chamber. This is the symbol of the Tentara Nasional Indonesia (Indonesian Republican Army). This indicates that this pistol was captured and served in the fight for independence after WWII. Is the star stamped anywhere else?

Yours is a very excellent example of the Dutch Luger. I particularly like the inclusion of the canvas holster/pouch.

I have a few questions about your Luger. Are there markings on the inside of the grip panels? Is GS stamped on the pistol anywhere? What are the markings on the bottom of the barrel? Can you post a picture of them?

You might find interesting things in the discussion of a Vickers Luger in the "Early Lugers..." section.

--Dwight

John -Melb · 04-15-2003, 11:07 AM

Joshua and Dwight,
The holster pictured is a British 1937 Pattern for the Enfield Revolver. Hundreds of thousands of these hosters were made 39-45. It's identical to the one I store my Enfield in, they ain't pretty but can't kill 'em. I would say that the Holster was either left behind by the Brits or Aussies at the end of the war, or given by the Brits to the Dutch and found it's way into Indonesian Army property via them. It should have three brass clips or loops on the back, the two vertical clips are to attach to the belt, the single horizontal clip allows the holster to be attached below the ammunition pouch for those who like the "low slung" look or have too much other gear hanging off their belts. Nice gear, with plenty of history.

Vlim · 04-15-2003, 12:21 PM

Hi,

Not much to add to Ron's excellent analysis. The indonesian army did acquire a number of Dutch lugers and had most of them stamped with the five-pointed star. The brass tags like on your gun were introduced from 1939, so I guess this gun at least had an additional rework in the area between 1939 and 1942.

The grips seem to be locally made replacements.

joshua · 04-21-2003, 02:57 AM

Hi Dwight,

I will take some pics of the grip and the bottom of the barrel.
As far as I know, there is this 1936 mark stamped at underneath of the barrel.

Joshua

joshua · 04-21-2003, 03:02 AM

Hi John-Melb,

Yes, I think that is possible, the British was here after the japanese occupation, they took over the disarmanent of the japanese army soon after that, the Ducth came back to Indonesia to reclaim their colony again, which was repulsed heavily.
Like you said, it must be around that period that the holster came into use.

joshua

joshua · 05-05-2003, 04:36 AM

Hi,
How do I load the pics, pls?

Joshua

John Sabato · 05-05-2003, 11:43 AM

Joshua,

There is a tutorial for posting photos in the Site Help & Feedback Forum... it was written by Ed Tinker... and it has helped many new members learn how to do this... I doubt it could be improved on... If you have any questions about posting photos after reading that message thread, then please ask them in that forum and one of us will be glad to help...

04-14-2003, 02:42 AM	#1
joshua User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Indonesia, city of jakarta Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	dutch luger Hi, My name is Joshua Winoto, my luger is featured in the Old corner's page, under the name "dutch luger'. I noticed that there is someone also owned an almost identical luger on the member's gallery, page 2, under the name 'Dutch M11 Luger'. The owner stated that the luger was bought from Netherdland. Is there anyway that I can contact him? Or is there anyone who could help me in identifying my luger? Mine is an Indonesian army luger, but Indonesia was under dutch occupation for a long time and I belive my luger should originated from the dutch army as well, they used to call it the 'vicker'. The gun is virtually identical with mine and his was formely of Indonesian army, too. Please help Thank You Regards, Joshua Winoto

04-14-2003, 03:07 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,607 Times in 2,123 Posts	Joshua, good to hear from you again! I am sure that whomever is the owner of the Dutch M11 Luger will contact you. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-14-2003, 10:18 AM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,119 Thanked 5,286 Times in 1,728 Posts	Joshua, You have a very nice example of the 1928 Dutch contract Luger. It is marked on the right side of the receiver with a KL inside a circle. This is generally accepted to be read as KOL for KoloniÃ?Â«n, or Ã¢??coloniesÃ¢?Â. The Ã¢??49Ã¢?Â markings on your Luger are the last two digits of the serial number and will be found on various small parts. There is a date marking on the top of the barrel just forward of the receiver. It is difficult to tell from the photo, but it appears to be Ã¢??1936Ã¢?Â. This indicates the date that the barrel was placed into service. In other words, this is the last time the weapon was arsenal re-worked and a new barrel was installed. The brass plate on the left side of the frame is a property mark. The Ã¢??Dep MÃ¢?Â, as well as I can interpret it, stands for the Ã¢??Depot Company of the Garrison Battalion, Southern and Eastern Areas of BorneoÃ¢?Â (depotcompagnie garnizoensbataljon zuider- en oosterafdeling Borneo). The number 54 is the weapon property number. The serial number range for the 1928 contract is 10182 to 14001. Your Luger should fall within that range. The official Dutch designation for the Luger is "M11" as 1911 was the date of the first contract for the Luger as a standard sidearm for the Netherlands. Most of this information was obtained from Ã¢??The Dutch Luger (Parabellum) Ã¢?? A Complete HistoryÃ¢?Â, a most excellent reference written by Bas J. Martens and Guus de Vries (1994). I hope it answers some of the questions you have concerning your fine Luger. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-14-2003, 10:28 AM	#5
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Ron, I agree. The info in Martens & de Vries book is exc. I still have a couple of new copies available @$50 post paid in the US. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

05-05-2003, 11:43 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	Joshua, There is a tutorial for posting photos in the Site Help & Feedback Forum... it was written by Ed Tinker... and it has helped many new members learn how to do this... I doubt it could be improved on... If you have any questions about posting photos after reading that message thread, then please ask them in that forum and one of us will be glad to help... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-14-2003, 05:42 AM	#3
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi Joshua, I also have a Dutch M11 Luger. It's not the one in the member gallery but it is marked to the Dutch Indonesian Army. I'd be happy to help you if I can. Cheers, John

04-15-2003, 01:06 AM	#6
joshua User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Indonesia, city of jakarta Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Edward, John, Ron and Lugerdoc, Thank you all so much for yr info and help. Ron's description of the luger is very very helpful. I have been trying to identified my luger for sometime, until I saw the almost identical luger in the member's gallery. It is extremely difficult to get any luger parts here in Indonesia. I was really surprised and delighted by Ron's description of the marking 'DEPT M', his description explains everything. I used to think that Dept M stands for some no longer valid Indonesian Army Dept, but after looking at the other dutch luger in the member's gallery, I came to the conclusion that the brass plate was not attached by the Indonesian army, it was attached by the Dutch as the other luger has the same plate but diffrent markings. Thank You all so much Joshua

04-15-2003, 02:05 AM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Joshua, There is one thing to add to Ron's identification of your M-11 Luger. There is a 5-pointed star stamped above the chamber. This is the symbol of the Tentara Nasional Indonesia (Indonesian Republican Army). This indicates that this pistol was captured and served in the fight for independence after WWII. Is the star stamped anywhere else? Yours is a very excellent example of the Dutch Luger. I particularly like the inclusion of the canvas holster/pouch. I have a few questions about your Luger. Are there markings on the inside of the grip panels? Is GS stamped on the pistol anywhere? What are the markings on the bottom of the barrel? Can you post a picture of them? You might find interesting things in the discussion of a Vickers Luger in the "Early Lugers..." section. --Dwight

04-15-2003, 11:07 AM	#8
John -Melb User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Peoples Republic of Australia! Posts: 145 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Joshua and Dwight, The holster pictured is a British 1937 Pattern for the Enfield Revolver. Hundreds of thousands of these hosters were made 39-45. It's identical to the one I store my Enfield in, they ain't pretty but can't kill 'em. I would say that the Holster was either left behind by the Brits or Aussies at the end of the war, or given by the Brits to the Dutch and found it's way into Indonesian Army property via them. It should have three brass clips or loops on the back, the two vertical clips are to attach to the belt, the single horizontal clip allows the holster to be attached below the ammunition pouch for those who like the "low slung" look or have too much other gear hanging off their belts. Nice gear, with plenty of history.

04-15-2003, 12:21 PM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,991 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Not much to add to Ron's excellent analysis. The indonesian army did acquire a number of Dutch lugers and had most of them stamped with the five-pointed star. The brass tags like on your gun were introduced from 1939, so I guess this gun at least had an additional rework in the area between 1939 and 1942. The grips seem to be locally made replacements.

04-21-2003, 02:57 AM	#10
joshua User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Indonesia, city of jakarta Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Dwight, I will take some pics of the grip and the bottom of the barrel. As far as I know, there is this 1936 mark stamped at underneath of the barrel. Joshua

04-21-2003, 03:02 AM	#11
joshua User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Indonesia, city of jakarta Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi John-Melb, Yes, I think that is possible, the British was here after the japanese occupation, they took over the disarmanent of the japanese army soon after that, the Ducth came back to Indonesia to reclaim their colony again, which was repulsed heavily. Like you said, it must be around that period that the holster came into use. joshua

05-05-2003, 04:36 AM	#12
joshua User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Indonesia, city of jakarta Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi, How do I load the pics, pls? Joshua