1913 Erfurt Police

Tony S. · 10-04-2003, 07:20 PM

I have the opportunity to purchase this gun:
<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/1913Erfurt.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/1913Erfurt.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
It is all matching, including magazine (I imagine that it was done when it was converted into a Police Luger). All imperial markings are present and very sharp. It is about 90+%, it looks shinny in the picture because it has a nice coat of oil. No unit markings are present. I was told by owner that it is a 1913 Erfurt but re-worked in 1933 and converted into a Police Luger. How can I tell? Also, What would be an average price for a gun like this? I am guessing that it would be between $700-$900 dollars. You assistance is appreciated.
Thanks, Tony

Edward Tinker · 10-04-2003, 07:50 PM

Hello Tony,

That is a nice looking Police Luger, if marked 1913 on the top, then it'd be just as you said, a 1913 Erfurt, made before they went to the stock lug later in 1913. They were reworked by Weimar police armories in the 1930's, and the Sear safety and magazine safety added. You see more that are "double" dated, the date on the receiver, and then (also) the 1920 Weimar property marking.

In the picture of yours, the top red is the Sear safety, the bottom red is the "removed" and filled in magazine safety, many will be found either removed like this or most of the safety clipped. Both safeties were added by early Nazi, and are one of the few ways to know it is a police gun.

Other ways to tell:

Police (unit) markings to know that it is a police gun.

Police acceptance stamps, such as eagle L on the gun, but no safeties.

Possibly a magazine that is serial marked and has a 1, 2 or 3? But that would make me leery if no other give-aways.

Prices on weimars are usually less than a straight imperial. $700 is a reasonable price, I think $900 is getting higher, not unreasonable for a matching magazine, but I would want it for around $800 at the most, but condition is everything, (as is originality), 90% is okay, and if it turns out to be a bit better, a bit higher in value.

Ed

Tony S. · 10-04-2003, 08:12 PM

I forgot to mention. The mag, which It is numbered to the gun, has a 1 stamped above the number and an S over a sunburst. Also, I should have been more clear in my previous question. I see that it is a Police Luger, but how can I determine wheather was done in the early 1920s vice 1930s? The only indication that I can tell, is acquired from the mag- the sunburst with an S (1929-1932).
Thanks, Tony

Edward Tinker · 10-04-2003, 10:48 PM

It is hard to tell, most police markings are unknown and need research, such as inside of your grips (metal area) are assorted letters and such and assumed to be rework marks.

BTW, here is a posting you might be interested in:

http://forums.lugerforum.com/cgi-bin...c;f=2;t=000401

The sear and mag safety were required by Prussian State Police Orders dated Aug 30, 1933, so even if your gun had been adopted prior to 1933, the only proof is that it was modified in 1933, and then sometime after 1937, when the mag safety was eliminated from service. On a side note, you will see guns with a sear safety and NO mag safety, but I don't imagine you will see any or very few mag safety and NO sear safety. The reason for seeing sear and no mag, is assumed that many WW1 era guns were in storage and taken out of storage AFTER 1937.

Ed

Tony S. · 10-06-2003, 11:14 AM

Ed,
Thanks for the reply. If this gun was re-worked, apparently several times, how did the keep the proof marks so sharp? Buffing is not apparent and edges are sharp.
Thanks, Tony

Edward Tinker · 10-06-2003, 09:27 PM

Tony, probably "reworked" once, maybe twice, AND not all police guns were reworked. Also remember, in my opinion, this was "like" a factory rework, done in Germany by trained and by the manual personnel, so a police or factory rework is a lot different than one done by joe-bob smif.

Ed

10-04-2003, 07:20 PM	#1
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1913 Erfurt Police I have the opportunity to purchase this gun: <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/1913Erfurt.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/1913Erfurt.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> It is all matching, including magazine (I imagine that it was done when it was converted into a Police Luger). All imperial markings are present and very sharp. It is about 90+%, it looks shinny in the picture because it has a nice coat of oil. No unit markings are present. I was told by owner that it is a 1913 Erfurt but re-worked in 1933 and converted into a Police Luger. How can I tell? Also, What would be an average price for a gun like this? I am guessing that it would be between $700-$900 dollars. You assistance is appreciated. Thanks, Tony

10-04-2003, 07:50 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Hello Tony, That is a nice looking Police Luger, if marked 1913 on the top, then it'd be just as you said, a 1913 Erfurt, made before they went to the stock lug later in 1913. They were reworked by Weimar police armories in the 1930's, and the Sear safety and magazine safety added. You see more that are "double" dated, the date on the receiver, and then (also) the 1920 Weimar property marking. In the picture of yours, the top red is the Sear safety, the bottom red is the "removed" and filled in magazine safety, many will be found either removed like this or most of the safety clipped. Both safeties were added by early Nazi, and are one of the few ways to know it is a police gun. Other ways to tell: Police (unit) markings to know that it is a police gun. Police acceptance stamps, such as eagle L on the gun, but no safeties. Possibly a magazine that is serial marked and has a 1, 2 or 3? But that would make me leery if no other give-aways. Prices on weimars are usually less than a straight imperial. $700 is a reasonable price, I think $900 is getting higher, not unreasonable for a matching magazine, but I would want it for around $800 at the most, but condition is everything, (as is originality), 90% is okay, and if it turns out to be a bit better, a bit higher in value. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-04-2003, 10:48 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	It is hard to tell, most police markings are unknown and need research, such as inside of your grips (metal area) are assorted letters and such and assumed to be rework marks. BTW, here is a posting you might be interested in: http://forums.lugerforum.com/cgi-bin...c;f=2;t=000401 The sear and mag safety were required by Prussian State Police Orders dated Aug 30, 1933, so even if your gun had been adopted prior to 1933, the only proof is that it was modified in 1933, and then sometime after 1937, when the mag safety was eliminated from service. On a side note, you will see guns with a sear safety and NO mag safety, but I don't imagine you will see any or very few mag safety and NO sear safety. The reason for seeing sear and no mag, is assumed that many WW1 era guns were in storage and taken out of storage AFTER 1937. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-06-2003, 09:27 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Tony, probably "reworked" once, maybe twice, AND not all police guns were reworked. Also remember, in my opinion, this was "like" a factory rework, done in Germany by trained and by the manual personnel, so a police or factory rework is a lot different than one done by joe-bob smif. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-04-2003, 08:12 PM	#3
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I forgot to mention. The mag, which It is numbered to the gun, has a 1 stamped above the number and an S over a sunburst. Also, I should have been more clear in my previous question. I see that it is a Police Luger, but how can I determine wheather was done in the early 1920s vice 1930s? The only indication that I can tell, is acquired from the mag- the sunburst with an S (1929-1932). Thanks, Tony

10-06-2003, 11:14 AM	#5
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed, Thanks for the reply. If this gun was re-worked, apparently several times, how did the keep the proof marks so sharp? Buffing is not apparent and edges are sharp. Thanks, Tony