Barrel Extension Shipping Issue

[physoft]

I recently purchased a complete upper assembly including the barrel, barrel extension, toggle, breechblock, firing pin assembly and including all the other miscellaneous parts needed to slide on the frame and fire. This was shipped to me USPS Priority I assume as parts. As I think we all know you cannot ship a handgun or firearm that can be concealed though the mail. It must be declared as a firearm and shipped overnight either FEDEX or UPS. According to the USPS website and in speaking with FEDEX today the complete upper assembly of a Luger is a firearm and not considered parts even though it is not the serialized frame. The barrel extension itself meets all the requirements of a receiver. Some of you may already know this so I will leave the post as is for now. I will fill in the details if need be....your thoughts.

[Major Tom]

I don't quite understand your problem. Did you receive the parts or not? Do you think they were held up somewhere because of the postal regulations? I have never encountered a problem shipping firearms or their parts using USPS or Fed-Ex. They don't have to be shipped overnight! USPS does not requier the shipping box to be labeled as to containing a firearm. I do ship overnight with signature requiered. Do you have the tracking number? Was the package insured for full dollar amount?

[physoft]

The problem is what was shipped as "parts" should have been declared a firearm. Some may not realize that the Luger "upper assembly" should be declared a firearm and specifically the barrel extension meets all the requirements of a receiver. This means you cannot ship USPS because receivers are restricted by the Post Office. I did receive the "parts" luckily but they could have been seized and never seen again. Some people get lucky shipping firearms as parts. Labels that say "firearms" inside are against any carriers policy. I don't know if the package was insured. This is meant to be a heads up when shipping this particular item.

[Edward Tinker]

NO, it is not a firearm - whomever told you this is wrong

Yes, the receiver on rifles is the part that is the part that must be registered, but for pistols, it is the FRAME - I don't care that somebody else ''thinks'' this is wrong and we are wrong, but we are following BATF regulations.

It may be a receiver, but it is parts and may be shipped any way you want and is not controlled by the ATF, does not need to go to an FFL etc.

[Chickenthief]

The upper is sometimes called the cannon as it is a functioning firearm without the lower/handle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WD8R3S9IDI

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Chickenthief

The upper is sometimes called the cannon as it is a functioning firearm without the lower/handle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WD8R3S9IDI

Yes it is, and it matters not a bit with regard to legal status in the US.

It also makes no sense, but the BATFE is the government entity that "decides" what is "controlled" and what is not.

The BATFE in their eminent wisdom have decided the frame of the luger is the controlled part, similar to the lower receiver/frame of the AR rifle.

The upper is not controlled in the US.

So the initial post is wrong, based on US rules and regs.
The post office, UPS, FedEx may make up their own rules as do many misinformed people.

But legally, in the US, (maybe some states have more rules), the upper is a part- as Ed said.

[physoft]

Thanks Chickenthief, my point exactly.

Ed - I am not talking about rifles, registration, FFL or BATF, just shipping at this point. I think we agree that the upper assembly/barrel extension is a receiver. Both USPS and FEDEX consider this a firearm and cannot be shipped as parts. You may think they are wrong, so be it. However, how can you argue with a shipping clerk who scans your shipment, decides its a firearm and turns it over to local authorities. Some do ship firearms as parts and do get away with it.

[physoft]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Yes it is, and it matters not a bit with regard to legal status in the US.

It also makes no sense, but the BATFE is the government entity that "decides" what is "controlled" and what is not.

The BATFE in their eminent wisdom have decided the frame of the luger is the controlled part, similar to the lower receiver/frame of the AR rifle.

The upper is not controlled in the US.

So the initial post is wrong, based on US rules and regs.
The post office, UPS, FedEx may make up their own rules as do many misinformed people.

But legally, in the US, (maybe some states have more rules), the upper is a part- as Ed said.

My original post was intended to focus on shipping policy not legal status.

[physoft]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

NO, it is not a firearm - whomever told you this is wrong

Yes, the receiver on rifles is the part that is the part that must be registered, but for pistols, it is the FRAME - I don't care that somebody else ''thinks'' this is wrong and we are wrong, but we are following BATF regulations.

It may be a receiver, but it is parts and may be shipped any way you want and is not controlled by the ATF, does not need to go to an FFL etc.

Maybe not controlled by ATF but is controlled by USPS and FEDEX for better or worse.

[mrerick]

But when you talk about postal regulations and their policy relating to firearm shipment, you cannot ignore statutory law.

While the USPS regulations are rather confusing, and the US code of statutory law is even more layered and deeply confusing, you also have to add the departmental regulations defined within the Justice Department's BATFE.

All of this is layered, interrelating and full of legal traps based in criminal law.

The regulated part of a gun which is considered a firearm is defined by the combination of statutory law, and ATF regulations.

The USPS regulations discuss shipment of "long guns" and "handguns". By regulation the part of a long gun or handgun that is considered a "firearm" and regulated is the frame, which also generally (but not always) has the firearm's unique (but not always) serial number.

Thus, USPS regulations on shipment of handguns apply to the "firearm" portion of the complete assembly, and that is the frame in the instance of a Luger. The canon assembly and other parts are not a "firearm" and not regulated under USPS rules, regardless of whether they can function as a firearm or not.

There are other oddities of USPS regulations. For example, even though you have a C&R FFL which permits interstate commerce under ATF rules, you are not allowed to ship regulated parts (frames) or complete handguns under current USPS rules, which only permit handgun shipment by "firearms dealers". By definition, a C&R FFL holder is not a dealer since we're not permitted to engage in "business".

All interstate shipping companies are free to make up their own rules, and do. Shipment between the US and other countries involves even more draconian, deep and confusing import / export regulations controlled by other Federal departments.

Isn't it remarkable how "shall not infringe" has become more than 22,000 rules, regulations and criminal laws? We are, of course, under attack by the "death by 1,000 cuts" strategy...

Marc

[physoft]

Originally Posted by mrerick

But when you talk about postal regulations and their policy relating to firearm shipment, you cannot ignore statutory law.

While the USPS regulations are rather confusing, and the US code of statutory law is even more layered and deeply confusing, you also have to add the departmental regulations defined within the Justice Department's BATFE.

All of this is layered, interrelating and full of legal traps based in criminal law.

The regulated part of a gun which is considered a firearm is defined by the combination of statutory law, and ATF regulations.

The USPS regulations discuss shipment of "long guns" and "handguns". By regulation the part of a long gun or handgun that is considered a "firearm" and regulated is the frame, which also generally (but not always) has the firearm's unique (but not always) serial number.

Thus, USPS regulations on shipment of handguns apply to the "firearm" portion of the complete assembly, and that is the frame in the instance of a Luger. The canon assembly and other parts are not a "firearm" and not regulated under USPS rules, regardless of whether they can function as a firearm or not.

There are other oddities of USPS regulations. For example, even though you have a C&R FFL which permits interstate commerce under ATF rules, you are not allowed to ship regulated parts (frames) or complete handguns under current USPS rules, which only permit handgun shipment by "firearms dealers". By definition, a C&R FFL holder is not a dealer since we're not permitted to engage in "business".

All interstate shipping companies are free to make up their own rules, and do. Shipment between the US and other countries involves even more draconian, deep and confusing import / export regulations controlled by other Federal departments.

Isn't it remarkable how "shall not infringe" has become more than 22,000 rules, regulations and criminal laws? We are, of course, under attack by the "death by 1,000 cuts" strategy...

Marc

You would think they could not ignore statutory law but apparently they do either out of ignorance or difference of opinion. Nowhere in USPS language do I find the phrase "complete assembly" as it pertains to definition of a firearm. Here is the USPS definition of a firearm:

"431.1 Firearm

The following definitions apply:
Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms meeting the description of a handgun or of a firearm capable of being concealed on a person).
Firearm frame or receiver is the part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel. Frames and receivers usually (but not always) include the firearm serial number and are usually considered to be the regulated component of a firearm."

Notice the term breechblock which is a specific part of a Luger, firing mechanism - trigger bar, firing pin, firing pin spring and firing pin retainer and finally the upper threaded portion that receives the barrel. This is the USPS's definition of a firearm and clearly defines the barrel extension and it's other components as part of the upper assembly only....not the frame. Say it ain't so.....

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by physoft

Thanks Chickenthief, my point exactly.

Ed - I am not talking about rifles, registration, FFL or BATF, just shipping at this point. I think we agree that the upper assembly/barrel extension is a receiver. Both USPS and FEDEX consider this a firearm and cannot be shipped as parts. You may think they are wrong, so be it. However, how can you argue with a shipping clerk who scans your shipment, decides its a firearm and turns it over to local authorities. Some do ship firearms as parts and do get away with it.

Yes, shipping, but you are quoting regulations and company rules.

Just because you talked to somebody, it is not right information.
We have collectively dealt with this for years, it is a part. And you can go on the same pages and find the definition of a handgun being shipped by an FFL - then it states that FFL 03's may ship handguns (antique), which makes no sense, anyone in the USA can ship a handgun that is an antique.

Frames and receivers usually (but not always) include the firearm serial number and are usually considered to be the regulated component of a firearm."

Please read the last line, regulated component - who regulates what a firearm is? BATF - thus this says that frame or receiver is the part regulated. BATF - not fedex, not ups, not USPS - but the ATF.

[Major Tom]

Well, I have shipped pistols and rifles via USPS with no problems what so ever. All shipped over night (expensive), signature requiered and insured for full amount. All my local Post Office asks is am I shipping lithium batteries, toxic liquids or perfume (of all things). Now my friend in Calif. went to his P.O. and they specifically asked if there was a firearm in his package (there was). Refused his shipment! Fed-Ex did same to him.
As for lugers, the upper cannon does have serial numbers and can be fired with no lower receiver. Put a round in the chamber and press the trigger bar....BANG! But, I would assume the local P.O. clerk would not know that.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

...
As for lugers, the upper cannon does have serial numbers and can be fired with no lower receiver. Put a round in the chamber and press the trigger bar....BANG! But, I would assume the local P.O. clerk would not know that.

As do many firearms and receivers - you can fire a T94 Nambu this way. A 1st Gen SAA Colt can hit the hammer and if a round is under the hammer it may go off.

[physoft]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Yes, shipping, but you are quoting regulations and company rules.

Just because you talked to somebody, it is not right information.
We have collectively dealt with this for years, it is a part. And you can go on the same pages and find the definition of a handgun being shipped by an FFL - then it states that FFL 03's may ship handguns (antique), which makes no sense, anyone in the USA can ship a handgun that is an antique.


Please read the last line, regulated component - who regulates what a firearm is? BATF - thus this says that frame or receiver is the part regulated. BATF - not fedex, not ups, not USPS - but the ATF.

The key phrase here is "usually (but not always)". Luger is the exception here because of it's unique construction. Please quote the other definitions you are citing and to clarify, I am not talking about antiques. I agree the information between USPS and ATF is or appears to be a contradiction. However, right or wrong, the ATF does not ship my firearms or firearm parts, USPS or FEDEX does...so to play it safe I think it best to follow their policy.

[physoft]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

Well, I have shipped pistols and rifles via USPS with no problems what so ever. All shipped over night (expensive), signature requiered and insured for full amount. All my local Post Office asks is am I shipping lithium batteries, toxic liquids or perfume (of all things). Now my friend in Calif. went to his P.O. and they specifically asked if there was a firearm in his package (there was). Refused his shipment! Fed-Ex did same to him.
As for lugers, the upper cannon does have serial numbers and can be fired with no lower receiver. Put a round in the chamber and press the trigger bar....BANG! But, I would assume the local P.O. clerk would not know that.

Clerk probably would not know that and that's why I assume many get away with it. But why risk losing your firearm over it? Also, I am in CA....God help me....and I expect to get asked if I am shipping a firearm.

[Edward Tinker]

The comment about antiques was on purpose, to show that USPS rules are inaccurate.


BATF is what all other companies must follow - does not mean that companies can not invent their own rules. But there are NOT exceptions such as the luger construction. There are numerous guns that have this type of construction. P38 (slide is numbered and comes off), 1911's, brownings, etc.

AR-15 uppers would fit that definition? And hundreds of them are sold and shipped USPS.

First time I have heard someone say that the upper is a controlled item...

[physoft]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

The comment about antiques was on purpose, to show that USPS rules are inaccurate.


BATF is what all other companies must follow - does not mean that companies can not invent their own rules. But there are NOT exceptions such as the luger construction. There are numerous guns that have this type of construction. P38 (slide is numbered and comes off), 1911's, brownings, etc.

AR-15 uppers would fit that definition? And hundreds of them are sold and shipped USPS.

First time I have heard someone say that the upper is a controlled item...

I know not of other guns but I think I understand what you are saying. According to ATF the frame is the controlled item and all the rest are parts which the shipping companies must follow. Right?

[Bill_in_VA]

The lower is the legally-defined "firearm." Everything else is just "parts." Instead of asking some mouth-breathing counter flunky, just put the parts in a box and mail the box. Don't over-complicate something that isn't complex.

[George Anderson]

Go to fedex.com and set up an account. Order shipping materials on line. Go on line to ship items. At no point are asked to describe contents. They only ask value. Request a pick-up and they pick it up the next day. No problems, no questions, no ass-holes. Simple and always ON TIME!