1919 Dated

Mark1 · 03-22-2017, 05:30 PM

I was sent these photos years ago by a local dealer looking to sell the gun. The story was that the gun was made in the Khyber Pass region near the Afghan-Pakistan border by the legendary arms cottage industry based there. Although I don't know that this was ever confirmed.
Some time later I was able to examine it in hand and it was clearly a working pistol that had seen plenty of use. No part of the gun appeared to be original Luger and it showed all the signs of having been made entirely with very limited machinery and basic hand tools.
The pistol was sold to a local collector and it was auctioned again just a couple of years ago, so I imagine it's still in NZ.
Sure, an example of a fake, but also of the work of someone with real skills.

lugerholsterrepair · 03-22-2017, 09:11 PM

A fascinating example! I bet even more so on the inside taken apart!

Mark1 · 03-22-2017, 11:45 PM

Jerry,
I didn't get to take it apart, there always seemed to be a crowd of curious people looking at shows. If it surfaces again I'll certainly make the effort to look inside and take some more photos.
Mark

Edward Tinker · 03-23-2017, 08:55 AM

I like it - a dealer I knew once had a working 38 spl homemade luger - I should have bought it, but it was just a bit above what I could scrape up at the time...

rhuff · 03-23-2017, 02:25 PM

That is awesome!! I can't imagine how long it took to produce this weapon. There are definitely some skilled folks out there. Thanx for the photos.

DonVoigt · 03-23-2017, 04:08 PM

Mark,
I don't think that is a "fake" as it would not deceive any one , but it is a "reproduction".
And impressive work at that, though it ain't "pretty".

John Sabato · 03-24-2017, 09:39 AM

Simply amazing hand work to produce this "reproduction"... Did you notice that the magazine bottom knobs are not centered on the grip? Truly a one-off example. Even though it is not "pretty" I am impressed. I would love to see photos of the magazine...

I also noticed that the bore looks larger than 9MM... Do you suppose it could be a .45 ACP caliber? Or maybe even .455 Webley?

sheepherder · 03-24-2017, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Did you notice that the magazine bottom knobs are not centered on the grip? Truly a one-off example.

The 'arc' of the safety lever is shorter than a P08/M1900 too.

DavidJayUden · 03-24-2017, 11:52 AM

Almost looks like the barrel points down a bit in relation to the lower grip frame rails. Also, does the serial number suggest that there are 2823 others?
dju

John Sabato · 03-24-2017, 12:35 PM

The serial number was probably copied from the "model" gun used for dimensions... or a favorite number of the buyer... or the machinist...

ithacaartist · 03-24-2017, 12:43 PM

Then whoever did the copying copied a mismatched gun, the side plate and safety bar don't match the frame!

spacecoast · 03-24-2017, 03:55 PM

What, no proof marks or import stamp?

The whole thing has a mildly 'warped' appearance.

Mark1 · 03-24-2017, 05:37 PM

I think the slight curvature mentioned is just camera lens distortion, the pistol appeared quite straight when I held it.
I looked down the bore and it was rifled, although fairly worn, and I assumed it was 9mm.
I do remember that there was no hold-open.
Tried a genuine Luger magazine and it fitted quite well but would not lock in place due to misaligned bottom knobs as John noted above.
The thing that amused everyone who saw it was, why choose 1919 as the chamber date ?
It's not very clear in the photos but the toggle link has a fair attempt at the DWM emblem engraved on top. My impression was that the engraving was fading due to refinishing !
Mark

DonVoigt · 03-24-2017, 06:17 PM

"The thing that amused everyone who saw it was, why choose 1919 as the chamber date ?"

Perhaps that is when it was made?

03-22-2017, 05:30 PM	#1
Mark1 User Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 72 Thanks: 332 Thanked 74 Times in 25 Posts	1919 Dated I was sent these photos years ago by a local dealer looking to sell the gun. The story was that the gun was made in the Khyber Pass region near the Afghan-Pakistan border by the legendary arms cottage industry based there. Although I don't know that this was ever confirmed. Some time later I was able to examine it in hand and it was clearly a working pistol that had seen plenty of use. No part of the gun appeared to be original Luger and it showed all the signs of having been made entirely with very limited machinery and basic hand tools. The pistol was sold to a local collector and it was auctioned again just a couple of years ago, so I imagine it's still in NZ. Sure, an example of a fake, but also of the work of someone with real skills. Attached Thumbnails

03-22-2017, 09:11 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	A fascinating example! I bet even more so on the inside taken apart! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-23-2017, 04:08 PM	#6
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,355 Times in 2,041 Posts	Mark, I don't think that is a "fake" as it would not deceive any one , but it is a "reproduction". And impressive work at that, though it ain't "pretty". __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-24-2017, 09:39 AM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Simply amazing hand work to produce this "reproduction"... Did you notice that the magazine bottom knobs are not centered on the grip? Truly a one-off example. Even though it is not "pretty" I am impressed. I would love to see photos of the magazine... I also noticed that the bore looks larger than 9MM... Do you suppose it could be a .45 ACP caliber? Or maybe even .455 Webley? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-24-2017, 12:35 PM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	The serial number was probably copied from the "model" gun used for dimensions... or a favorite number of the buyer... or the machinist... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-22-2017, 11:45 PM	#3
Mark1 User Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 72 Thanks: 332 Thanked 74 Times in 25 Posts	Jerry, I didn't get to take it apart, there always seemed to be a crowd of curious people looking at shows. If it surfaces again I'll certainly make the effort to look inside and take some more photos. Mark

03-23-2017, 08:55 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I like it - a dealer I knew once had a working 38 spl homemade luger - I should have bought it, but it was just a bit above what I could scrape up at the time...

03-23-2017, 02:25 PM	#5
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,308 Thanks: 2,737 Thanked 993 Times in 729 Posts	That is awesome!! I can't imagine how long it took to produce this weapon. There are definitely some skilled folks out there. Thanx for the photos.

03-24-2017, 11:52 AM	#9
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Almost looks like the barrel points down a bit in relation to the lower grip frame rails. Also, does the serial number suggest that there are 2823 others? dju

03-24-2017, 12:43 PM	#11
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,374 Thanks: 7,447 Thanked 2,613 Times in 1,380 Posts	Then whoever did the copying copied a mismatched gun, the side plate and safety bar don't match the frame! __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

03-24-2017, 03:55 PM	#12
spacecoast User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: FL and PA Posts: 332 Thanks: 276 Thanked 243 Times in 109 Posts	What, no proof marks or import stamp? The whole thing has a mildly 'warped' appearance. __________________ My avatars are the Bulgarian word for "Fire", as seen on my 1900, 1906 and 1908 Bulgarian Contract DWM Lugers. Looking for a DWM Commercial side plate #95

03-24-2017, 05:37 PM	#13
Mark1 User Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 72 Thanks: 332 Thanked 74 Times in 25 Posts	I think the slight curvature mentioned is just camera lens distortion, the pistol appeared quite straight when I held it. I looked down the bore and it was rifled, although fairly worn, and I assumed it was 9mm. I do remember that there was no hold-open. Tried a genuine Luger magazine and it fitted quite well but would not lock in place due to misaligned bottom knobs as John noted above. The thing that amused everyone who saw it was, why choose 1919 as the chamber date ? It's not very clear in the photos but the toggle link has a fair attempt at the DWM emblem engraved on top. My impression was that the engraving was fading due to refinishing ! Mark

03-24-2017, 06:17 PM	#14
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,355 Times in 2,041 Posts	"The thing that amused everyone who saw it was, why choose 1919 as the chamber date ?" Perhaps that is when it was made? __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie