Collecting vs shooting

[RShaw]

Oops.... bad chouce of words
I mean the rear of the receiver where the rear toggle pin goes through- the end was completely broken off

I would be nervous about breaking a numbered part and destroying a collectible gun.
Yes and the $ loss would not thrill me either. Yes you would have a shooter with a replacement part, but breaking the "all original" status would be a shame. Once it's gone, it's gone.

SO.... I'm waiting for my shooter to come through , a matching but refinished 1918 DWM... only 5 months to go. My first Luger (P08 1917 DWM) is a collectible. Took a while to finally decide not to shoot it. Still tempting sometimes, to be honest

[spacecoast]

Losing a "slide" on a luger would be really amazing- since it does not have one.

You're being a little harsh there Don, we know what he meant. I think that's the one where the frame ear broke.

Any pistol can "break"; a luger is no more nor no less prone to break than any other.

I think a 100 year old Luger is somewhat more prone to breaking than your average 100 year old Colt or S&W revolver due to having more, smaller moving parts subjected to relatively violent motion and high forces. Same with a 1911... the parts are fewer, bigger and tougher, and the design does not involve a relatively fragile toggle assembly slamming into a frame ear.

[RShaw]

"Frame ear" !!
Ahhhh Thank you.

Good point about the more robust revolvers versus the complex Lugers,
When I was very young we had several beautiful old shotguns, one an engraved 20 gauge Beretta, we shot all of them a lot. We also learned very well how to maintain them properly.
I would be far more prone to shoot a Colt SAA in good shape than a collectible Luger.
Ah well, my shooter will be here soon enough )
Thanks for all your tips and corrections )

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by spacecoast

You're being a little harsh there Don, we know what he meant. I think that's the one where the frame ear broke.



I think a 100 year old Luger is somewhat more prone to breaking than your average 100 year old Colt or S&W revolver due to having more, smaller moving parts subjected to relatively violent motion and high forces. Same with a 1911... the parts are fewer, bigger and tougher, and the design does not involve a relatively fragile toggle assembly slamming into a frame ear.

Harsh,
No, I had no idea what he meant. Now he says rear toggle broke, and you say the frame ear- so I am still confused/

Comparing a revolver to a semi-auto is a stretch, but I have seen and repaired more "broken" revolvers than lugers- the small pieces and springs wear out - then the things won't time. Occasionally even a cylinder "blows" out!

The 1911 is a robust design for sure, but the extractor is a weak point as is the 3 leaf flat spring for the trigger, disconnector and grip safety. I have seen more than one barrel link broken also.
But then they are 100 years old too; and all guns "break"!

We can agree to disagree, but the luger pistols I have seen "broken" were significantly abused, which has nothing to do with the reliability of the design.

And the toggle does not "slam" into the toggle ear, the ear is a ramp and forces the toggle up, there is no way it slams! JMHO.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by RShaw

"Frame ear" !!
Ahhhh Thank you.

Good point about the more robust revolvers versus the complex Lugers,
When I was very young we had several beautiful old shotguns, one an engraved 20 gauge Beretta, we shot all of them a lot. We also learned very well how to maintain them properly.
I would be far more prone to shoot a Colt SAA in good shape than a collectible Luger.
Ah well, my shooter will be here soon enough )
Thanks for all your tips and corrections )

Sorry RS,
but revolvers are not "robust". If you have ever worked on the small and finely fitted pieces, you would recognize that.

I've been working on guns for 50+ years, and have repaired many more fragile revolvers than automatics. Revolvers require fine fitting and close tolerances to work properly and wear out relatively quickly. A Colt SAA is one of the worst, it is sear/bolt and spring are a unit and fail frequently. The nub on the trigger wears and won't pull the bolt down correctly, which is why you see a drag line and eventually the piece won't unlock . One big advantage of the Colt and others is that the pieces are not numbered, and can be replaced without anyone "knowing"! Even with current made Italian reproduction parts.

Anyway as I said in the post above, we can agree to disagree,
but many truly worry much more than necessary about breaking a luger.

I'll agree at on the rare occasion it happens on a matching number piece, one loses much $$.

Here's hoping your shooter is a good one!

[cirelaw]

A luger has 44 reasons to respect!!

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

A luger has 44 reasons to respect!!

Eric,
Is that the parts count?
I've never had the need to know!

I Wonder how many parts in a 1911?
Maybe someone will count- I'm too lazy.

[RShaw]

Well, I've been working on guns for 00 years, and am unfamiliar with the very fine parts of a revolver, so I'm clearly on a steep learning curve. I do want to use the correct terms for the different parts; so have referred in the meantime to the diagrams at the end of the FAQ's. Anyway, I was very surprised at what happened to the aforementioned Erfurt- the rear of the barrel extension with a hole for the rear toggle link- broke off completely. That's pretty scary.... But yes, maybe there IS more than warranted concern about breaking these guns. The fact that it was alleged that the broken piece showed "crystallization" of the metal makes me wonder how many of these old guns have weakened over time to the point where massive failure occurs even with proper care and correct ammunition. Of course we'll never know, and the debate continues.
There's a link to the Erfurt failure in the second post (by Norme) in the thread "collectibles- to shoot or not to shoot them, that is the question" in the All P08 Military Lugers Forum.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Eric,
Is that the parts count?
I've never had the need to know!

I Wonder how many parts in a 1911?
Maybe someone will count- I'm too lazy.

less
If i remember right

Folks say, field strip 9

Complete disassemble 49

But there seems conflicting answers and I only field strip anything

[alvin]

I fired some collector grade items. In C96 domain, the market has a few focuses. One focus is top condition "3e" samples (sample with excellent original blue, excellent matching stock, and excellent original bore). There are not many of them, and those are not for shooting. Owner need to keep them in that condition to keep the value. But, there are also many samples missing one or two of those "e". Case by case, if not rare,,, shooting a few is not a big deal.

Other focuses in the domain including collecting original Chinese copies. The cost is not as high as collecting German pistols and there is also some fun in collecting them. The volume is not big. Those are not for shooting. Although most of them look being shooters, consider their context, they are not. At least, not for frequent shooting.

An item for looking only... either it has super condition, or it has strong historical background, or its rarity index being very high. Those should not go to range.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

less
If i remember right

Folks say, field strip 9

Complete disassemble 49

But there seems conflicting answers and I only field strip anything

Thanks Ed,
falls in like with what I almost remember- the 1911 has as many pieces as the luger; and is a bit more finicky to strip completely and re-assemble. JMHO.

[RShaw]

Well, the C96 area is very special... I would never argue with not shooting "3e" pieces. But for the majority of collectors, who collect, buy and sell (and shoot!) the "basic" P08 in all it's variations, this debate continues to spark wide differences of opinion.....

I never knew that Lugers had numbered parts at all until I first joined this forum in November 2016. At that time I had just found my collectible 1917 DWM, (story already told) and bought it with the idea to shoot it, never dawning on me that these guns are also sought by so many enthusiasts or to such a great extent. It was not cheap; I paid what turns out to be a "fair price" (OK for me), but after reading related threads on this and on other forums, I really had to think again... do I really want to shoot this gun and take the chance of "killing a collectible?"

Here's the link to the Erfurt failure: breechlock AND rail / barrel extension damage
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...+range+failure

I know I would be nervous each time I would shoot this collectible. Even though I would LOVE to shoot it.... I don't want to be uptight about it. SO, it doesn't go to the range, and I see it as a piece of history and an investment. I'm shooting my P38 (ac43) for now- a matching, refinished, and refurbished gun- great shooter!

Now waiting for my 1918 DWM shooter to come through in August. Then more fun begins.

[alvin]

C&R could be a good investment. Just like any investment, the cost is an important factor. I heard statement saying "you cannot pay too much for a nice gun"... that's true in the past due to speaker live in a fast-rising market. Situation changed a little bit since then, cost needs to be put into the equation. If a nice original C&R gun comes at modest cost, that's very good investment. Consider banks only pay 1.5% interest on long term saving, putting certain money into nice C&R not for shooting makes sense. If also love certain types, then, it's a big driver too.

[RShaw]

Good point Alvin.
Living here in the Netherlands means joining a Collector's CLub- busy doing that now.

[cirelaw]

A few more parts than our beloved luger ~~http://www.m1911.org/partdesc.htm