Dealer not selling to a valid C&R Holder in MA

MarkC · 06-23-2015, 07:13 PM

Hi Guys,

This topic has come up before but I hate when people lie to me.

A seller on Gunbroker with over 2,000 transactions has a Beretta for sale that is somewhat rare and not identified correctly in the ad, low information seller.

His ad states the following:

----

C&R HANDGUNS will be shipped to a FFL Dealer and will not be directly shipped to C&R holders in: CA, CT, DC, MA, MD, NJ, NY,

----

So I send him a message and he will obviously ship to other C&R holders in other states or he would state "No shipment to C&R FFL's"

----

Hello, I am interested in this pistol, is there a reason you won't legally ship a
C&R gun to a C&R holder in Massachusetts? Look at my website and my purchases on
Gunbroker www.p38guns.com I've never had an issue with the legal shipment to my C&R.
Mark

----

He replies

----

Liability: Per our insurer-

(Since we cannot verify C&R's as we can std. FFL via EZ check-)

"Massachusetts has a law on the books that says you cannot buy any gun made before
1994 unless it was previously owned in Massachusetts and there is proof to that
fact."

----

Hmmm but he will ship to C&R holders in other states right?

What liabilty? FedEx? UPS?

If a legal transaction on a pistol is done at a gunshop and the person legally allowed to buy the gun and they shoot someone, the shop is not liable. If the shop didn't follow BATFE rules, they are screwed!

So I send this

----

This statement is NOT TRUE in so many ways.

"Massachusetts has a law on the books that says you cannot buy any gun made before
1994 unless it was previously owned in Massachusetts and there is proof to that
fact."

1. If a gun is on the approved firearms roster it can be legally sold no matter when
it was made.

2. You can't buy a gun from an FFL dealer in MA that wasn't in the state prior to
1994 unless on the roster.

However, a C&R is an FFL, so I can buy any C&R gun but can't sell it again in MA to
a non ffl holder.

An FFL holder can buy any gun he wants, he just can't sell it unless it is either on
the approved firearms roster or in the state prior to 1994.

I have been collecting guns in Massachusetts on my ffl since 1990 and know there is
some convoluted thoughts about what is allowed and what isn't but I assure you C&R
is OK in this state.

Did you look at my website? I have over 500 guns in my collection which are all in
my bound book.

------

He responds

----

Understand , your position-

Please understand ours-
Our policy is determined based upon our legal and insurance advisors/counselors-

We have not looked at your website, although, it would not have affected the answer
which we originally forwarded to you.

----

As we say in Massachusetts, "What an Arse".

It is against forum policy the "flame" sellers but drop me a PM and I'll let you know who he is and you can feel free to send him a message via gunbroker when I send you the ad #.

Thanks for letting me vent here

You can also reach me mark at p38 guns dot com if you want the ad number.

Mark

mrerick · 06-23-2015, 07:27 PM

I think that most of these state laws are intended to interfere with the law abiding citizens, period. They certainly don't make us safer, even if they make some of the ignorant people "feel good"...

They are worded in such a way as to setup issues without addressing them, all toward interference with the lawful commerce in firearms.

The C&R FFL is setup in such a way as you have to comply with all state laws when you use it.

What in crime prevention is so magic about 1994?

Marc

sheepherder · 06-23-2015, 07:33 PM

I followed a link here a few days ago where the seller stated they did not ship to C&R holders; that it was just their policy.

Edward Tinker · 06-23-2015, 09:25 PM

I wrote a guy on gunbroker and he came back with some crappy answer and we back and forth for a while before we both gave up (got heated)

easy to get into a pee'ing contest and I finally just said ti was stupid as he did - he still won't sell to C&R....

Zorba · 06-24-2015, 01:00 AM

The stand out phrase "our policy..."

As soon as you hear the "P" word, all pretense of customer service is gone. Just walk away.

MikeP · 06-24-2015, 06:39 AM

I have got torqued off on this a time or two.
Basically there are too many complications in some situations and areas for sellers to take any chances. One has to respect that.
If this is one's source of income, at any level, erring on the side of caution is advised.
They are out there and they are trying to trip you up. No amount of craphouse lawyering will counter that.
I had a friend who did this for the ATF.
There are a few dealers who actually dislike C&Rs. They feel we are stealing from their children's mouths.
At any rate, it is their choice, and arguing with one is a waste of oxygen.

In the next couple years I am going to be dumping a 50+ year accumulation including some nice Lugers.
I will be overly cautious regarding handguns.

Mac Cat · 06-24-2015, 08:55 AM

Sometimes "Insurance" has a stronger influence than laws - that's often the reasons the tail wags the dog. On the other hand, that dealer may have some other issues. Here in my little town in Arkansas, two of the most active FFL's are out of business, overnight, no explanation.

DonVoigt · 06-24-2015, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeP

I have got torqued off on this a time or two.
Basically there are too many complications in some situations and areas for sellers to take any chances. One has to respect that.
If this is one's source of income, at any level, erring on the side of caution is advised.
They are out there and they are trying to trip you up. No amount of craphouse lawyering will counter that.
I had a friend who did this for the ATF.
There are a few dealers who actually dislike C&Rs. They feel we are stealing from their children's mouths.
At any rate, it is their choice, and arguing with one is a waste of oxygen.

In the next couple years I am going to be dumping a 50+ year accumulation including some nice Lugers.
I will be overly cautious regarding handguns.

+1, absolute waste of time to argue.
Like teaching a pig to sing, it only annoys the pig and frustrates the teacher!

06-23-2015, 07:13 PM	#1
MarkC User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 482 Thanks: 1 Thanked 126 Times in 29 Posts	Dealer not selling to a valid C&R Holder in MA Hi Guys, This topic has come up before but I hate when people lie to me. A seller on Gunbroker with over 2,000 transactions has a Beretta for sale that is somewhat rare and not identified correctly in the ad, low information seller. His ad states the following: ---- C&R HANDGUNS will be shipped to a FFL Dealer and will not be directly shipped to C&R holders in: CA, CT, DC, MA, MD, NJ, NY, ---- So I send him a message and he will obviously ship to other C&R holders in other states or he would state "No shipment to C&R FFL's" ---- Hello, I am interested in this pistol, is there a reason you won't legally ship a C&R gun to a C&R holder in Massachusetts? Look at my website and my purchases on Gunbroker www.p38guns.com I've never had an issue with the legal shipment to my C&R. Mark ---- He replies ---- Liability: Per our insurer- (Since we cannot verify C&R's as we can std. FFL via EZ check-) "Massachusetts has a law on the books that says you cannot buy any gun made before 1994 unless it was previously owned in Massachusetts and there is proof to that fact." ---- Hmmm but he will ship to C&R holders in other states right? What liabilty? FedEx? UPS? If a legal transaction on a pistol is done at a gunshop and the person legally allowed to buy the gun and they shoot someone, the shop is not liable. If the shop didn't follow BATFE rules, they are screwed! So I send this ---- This statement is NOT TRUE in so many ways. "Massachusetts has a law on the books that says you cannot buy any gun made before 1994 unless it was previously owned in Massachusetts and there is proof to that fact." 1. If a gun is on the approved firearms roster it can be legally sold no matter when it was made. 2. You can't buy a gun from an FFL dealer in MA that wasn't in the state prior to 1994 unless on the roster. However, a C&R is an FFL, so I can buy any C&R gun but can't sell it again in MA to a non ffl holder. An FFL holder can buy any gun he wants, he just can't sell it unless it is either on the approved firearms roster or in the state prior to 1994. I have been collecting guns in Massachusetts on my ffl since 1990 and know there is some convoluted thoughts about what is allowed and what isn't but I assure you C&R is OK in this state. Did you look at my website? I have over 500 guns in my collection which are all in my bound book. ------ He responds ---- Understand , your position- Please understand ours- Our policy is determined based upon our legal and insurance advisors/counselors- We have not looked at your website, although, it would not have affected the answer which we originally forwarded to you. ---- As we say in Massachusetts, "What an Arse". It is against forum policy the "flame" sellers but drop me a PM and I'll let you know who he is and you can feel free to send him a message via gunbroker when I send you the ad #. Thanks for letting me vent here You can also reach me mark at p38 guns dot com if you want the ad number. Mark

06-23-2015, 07:27 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	I think that most of these state laws are intended to interfere with the law abiding citizens, period. They certainly don't make us safer, even if they make some of the ignorant people "feel good"... They are worded in such a way as to setup issues without addressing them, all toward interference with the lawful commerce in firearms. The C&R FFL is setup in such a way as you have to comply with all state laws when you use it. What in crime prevention is so magic about 1994? Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

06-23-2015, 07:33 PM	#3
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,197 Thanks: 1,416 Thanked 4,462 Times in 2,336 Posts	I followed a link here a few days ago where the seller stated they did not ship to C&R holders; that it was just their policy. __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

06-23-2015, 09:25 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I wrote a guy on gunbroker and he came back with some crappy answer and we back and forth for a while before we both gave up (got heated) easy to get into a pee'ing contest and I finally just said ti was stupid as he did - he still won't sell to C&R....

06-24-2015, 01:00 AM	#5
Zorba User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Merritt Island, Fl Posts: 952 Thanks: 777 Thanked 528 Times in 290 Posts	The stand out phrase "our policy..." As soon as you hear the "P" word, all pretense of customer service is gone. Just walk away.

06-24-2015, 06:39 AM	#6
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	I have got torqued off on this a time or two. Basically there are too many complications in some situations and areas for sellers to take any chances. One has to respect that. If this is one's source of income, at any level, erring on the side of caution is advised. They are out there and they are trying to trip you up. No amount of craphouse lawyering will counter that. I had a friend who did this for the ATF. There are a few dealers who actually dislike C&Rs. They feel we are stealing from their children's mouths. At any rate, it is their choice, and arguing with one is a waste of oxygen. In the next couple years I am going to be dumping a 50+ year accumulation including some nice Lugers. I will be overly cautious regarding handguns.

06-24-2015, 08:55 AM	#7
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 751 Thanks: 2,157 Thanked 630 Times in 340 Posts	Sometimes "Insurance" has a stronger influence than laws - that's often the reasons the tail wags the dog. On the other hand, that dealer may have some other issues. Here in my little town in Arkansas, two of the most active FFL's are out of business, overnight, no explanation.