Help ID-ing an early luger

[bishop333]

Hello Luger Forum,

Long time fan, first time owner. Just purchased my first Luger on Saturday as I have always wanted one since I saw a Luger 20 years ago in a
collection. Mechanically, I find them very fascinating (taken this one apart 10+ times already!) and they are very unique in their looks.
So my point for this post. I have gone through the data sheets here at LugerForum and even looked up this Luger in the Gun BlueBook but I have not
been able to pin point the what and where of this Luger. I ask on the experts here to please help me determine the details of this Luger. Here is
what I know:

- I believe it is a 1900 Model (early style). Definitely old style with "leaf spring" main.

- 9mm Caliber

- DWM manufacture (see picture below)

- Serial number under frame by barrel in 4552. Also under it is "Germany" and to right is a "heart" emblem (see picture below.

- You name the part they seem to be all matched to number 52. Included both toggle links, breechblock, receiver, grips, etc.

- (Here is where it gets weird) it has an 8 inch barrel that has "9mm" on one side and "Barrel by SS&D" on the other side

- Also different is it has adjustable rear sights on the Rear Toggle Link.

So any input you guys have would be very helpful in determining this Lugers origin.

(side Note: the picture of the rear sight shows it missing the "plate" that has the notch. If anyone knows where I can get one that would be great)











Bishop333

[John D.]

First - welcome to the LugerForum!!!!

Second - OUTSTANDING PICS!!!!

Third - I'll let others reply with the "correct" answer, as this is outside my collecting area, but it looks like an outstanding conversion to a custom made Target Model using a 1900 base. From a strict "collectors" standpoint, it's not a factory conversion or factory made special, and would limit it's "collectors value" - but - for that - it looks to be an outstanding conversion into a "bullseye" shooter.....

Great first post - and welcome again!!!

John

[bishop333]

John,

Thank you very much for the welcome!

Your conclusions are close to mine. However, there is one thing that throughs all this off (in my opinion) the Rear Toggle has the adjustable sights as part of its build. And this Toggle does match (#52) all the other parts of this Luger. So what Early luger was built with a Rear adjustable sight?

And I hear you on the barrel. It might be a "re-barrel". Did the early models have the match number on the barrel as well?

I could not stand it, I checked the bore and action, went to the local range and fired this beauty! Oh man, what a rush. This guy is very accurate and easy to shoot. First time for me on both 9mm and for a Luger. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

[John D.]

Well - I'll let the others help you out on the Early Lugers and your questions... But......

I AM SO ENVIOUS of your Luger!!! I've wanted an early Luger built up exactly the way yours is for many years, just because they are inherently accurate - and with adjustable sights and the longer barrel, it's fantastic. Congratulations again!. I'll bet yours shoots just great..!!.

I don't want to hi-jack your thread and go off-topic, so I'll enjoy the replies you get about your Luger.......

My Best To you - and again - a great first post!

John

[Dwight Gruber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by bishop333:
<strong>...(in my opinion) the Rear Toggle has the adjustable sights as part of its build. And this Toggle does match (#52) all the other parts of this Luger. So what Early luger was built with a Rear adjustable sight?

And I hear you on the barrel. It might be a "re-barrel". Did the early models have the match number on the barrel as well?

I could not stand it, I checked the bore and action, went to the local range and fired this beauty! Oh man, what a rush. This guy is very accurate and easy to shoot.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Bishop 333,

A -very- unique Luger conversion. Be assured that, as cunningly as the rear sight may be attached to the rear toggle piece, that it is purely an attachment--no 1900 model Luger was manufactured with such a sight. If you look carefully there is a manufacturer or model engraved into it. It is not quite readable in your very excellent photographs, it would be interesting to know what it says.

Regarding the barrel, it is a "modern" replacement as well. The 9mm Parabellum cartridge did not exist in the era which the serial# on your Luger represents. And yes, original barrels were numbered to the gun.

If you are going to continue shooting this gun (a worthwhile endeavour, to be sure!), I recommend that you find the lowest-power 9mm ammunition which will operate the action reliably--if you handload, it might be worthwhile working up a custom load for it. Model 1900 Lugers were not designed for this powerful a cartridge. You have noted the leaf-type recoil spring, after 100+ years these grow very weak and some say they are prone to breakage. They are very nearly impossible to replace. I'm sure that your standard 9mm rounds are causing the rear toggle stop to really pound against the rear frame, and there is a very real possibility of toggle or frame breakage.

This is a very interesting gun to me particularly, as I am surveying early Commercial Lugers. If you could answer a few questions, or post some particular pictures, I'd appreciate it.

Do I see accurately that the top of the chamber is blank? Are there crown-overB and crown-over-U marks on the left receiver and the left breechblock? Could you post a photo of the thumb safety and the rear grip strap/grip safety? Where is the serial number on the takedown lever located?

Does the magazine body appear to have a "brushed" finish? What--if any--markings are on the magazine base?

Thanks in advance for the extra info. A neat gun.

--Dwight

[bishop333]

Dwight,

Excellent, good info. Let me get back to you later tonight (when I have more time) with some more information and pictures.

Bishop333

[John Sabato]

Let me add my welcome to forum...

Bishop, the rear sight on your Luger was manufactured by "Micro" an American manufacturer of such sights that were common on many conversions and offered also as standard equipment on some American made pistols...

This photo is an enlargement and rotated copy of yours. I greyscaled it, then flipped it to a negative image to allow the "Micro" stamp to be more easily read:



The rear toggle was modified by welding in order to create a base for the adjustable sight assembly. I used the same rear sight inletted into the NEW topstrap of an original Colt Single Action Army revolver... the old topstrap had disappeared as a result of a reloading accident, along with the top half of the .45 Long Colt caliber cylinder...

I got the remains of the revolver as junk and used it as one of my first gunsmithing projects about 30 odd years ago. I hand filed/ground a piece of tool steel into an appropriate shape for a flattop and welded it into the space at the top of the revolver... then I machined the new strap to accept exactly the rear sight assembly shown in your photo. A new cylinder and 7.5 inch barrel in .38 special completed the mechanicals, and then it was color case hardened and blued... It was so pretty that it sold in less than a week to a regular customer who understood that no hi-velocity loads were to be used in it... wish I knew where that gun were now.

Anyway, the rear sight is definitely American made and likely added to a the stock Luger rear toggle by an enterprising gunsmith some time ago...

It should be a DANDY shooter!

[Lugerdoc]

Bishop, Your Micro rear sight did not have a numbered part like an Artillery or a Carbine; just the screw shown for elevation and usually an adjustable blade for windage. I do have replacement M1900 flat recoil springs should you or another member need one. TH

[John Sabato]

Clark's Custom Guns, has a complete M1911 type rear Micro sight... the blade should fit yours...

$45.00

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/takeoffs.htm

or I found this with a google search...

Gil Hebard Guns
A long-time supplier to bullseye shooters. The Hebard catalog contains just about any piece of bullseye-related gear you could desire, including boxes, spotting scopes, scorebooks, and other bullseye-specific items that the local gun store probably doesn't carry. No website yet, so here's their contact info:
Gil Hebard Guns
125 Public Square
Knoxville, IL 61448
(309)289-2700
FAX (309)289-2233

or you can try Gun Parts Corp to see if they have any complete sights or just blades...

http://www.e-gunparts.com

[bishop333]

First, this is by far the most friendly and supportive web sight I have been to in years. You guys are great!

Dwight:
You are correct! Just took a better look and the rear sight has been added to the rear toggle. Who ever did this was an artist, the line break is barely noticeable and once assembled on the Luger you can barely see the break. I have included pictures showing the sight and rear toggle from the side.

OK, in an effort to help you out on your logging of early Lugers here is the info you requested (pictures attached):
- Correct, no logo on the chamber top
- Yes, it appears the logos you mention are on both the receiver and the breech (please check the photos and tell me if you see this. Hard to get the receiver one as it is shallow, what does this stand for?)
- Picture of grip safety and number location on take down on attached pics
- No stamps on the mag at all. Mag seems to not be the brushed kind.

Please let me know what else I can get you.

John:

Yes, the sight is by â??Microâ?� as shown in my attached pic as well. I was looking at the slot for the missing rear sight plate and thought it looked familiar. So I took the rear plate off my Ruger Super Blackhawk and it went in like it was made for it! Amazing and very cool. So I have already ordered the plate from Brownells. Thanks for the leads.

Luger Doc:

Sent you an email today for the parts I need. Look forward to doing business with you.

Conclusion:

OK, this is great, I really have a good idea of what I got thanks to you guys. So my final questions are:
- What company does â??SS&Dâ?� stand for on this 8â?� barrel? (as in â??Barrel by SS&Dâ?�)
- So I take it this did start out as a 1900 commercial model that was converted to 9mm. When do you think this was done?
- What would be your take on the value of this Luger? (totally understand and will not take personally the fact it had been â??modifiedâ?� and might be de-valued). I would say 85-90% finish, all matching numbers (except barrel).

Bottom line is I am very excited to own this Luger and it is very fun to shoot. <img border="0" alt="[king]" title="" src="graemlins/r.gif" /> Having an 8â?� barrel with a rear adjustable sight makes this a VERY accurate pistol. I will have to go to the range and scan in some pics of what it can do for grouping. Would anyone be interested in seeing this?

Thanks again guys and really appreciate the help. I have another question that I have made a new post below.

Bishop333

[bishop333]

Dwight,

I have taken your advice to really watch this Luger I have as it was converted to 9mm. I definitely do not want to break the gun or damage it in any way. But at the same time I really want to keep it as a shooter. So I have a couple of questions specific to this issue:

I hear you on the lighter loads but here is something I think helps. It looks like the recoil spring has an â??extraâ?� flat type spring added to it. This â??extraâ?� spring can be removed from the handle independent of the main spring pack. I did a search here and it looks like this might be an â??add-onâ?� part called the â??acceleratorâ?�. I take it this was a part you could add to the return spring and make it stiffer. So someone probably added this to help with both the hotter load (9mm conversion) and the heavier barrel. Does all this sound correct to you?

Also, on the back of the frame there is a large impact mark where the rear toggle comes back, hits the frame, then goers forward. Is this common to all Lugers? Do you others guys see this with your Lugers? It does make me a bit nervous after thinking about this 9mm conversation as I do not want to â??poundâ?� on the frame. You can sort of see this mark on the picture (above post) of the grip safety.

Thanks again for your help,
Bishop333

[Edward Tinker]

Fin, it is a sweet gun, that is for sure!

I'm just south of Denver, U?

Ed

[Dwight Gruber]

Bishop333,

Thanks much for the additional information, this is a particularly interesting addition to the database, it will be noteworthy when I post my conclusions. The unmarked mag base is proper for your 1900 Luger.

I haven't heard of the spring addition you mention, it sounds very interesting--photos would be instructive.

Lugers usually display a "strike mark" on the back frame, it is not necessarily diagnostic unless it is really pounded and compressed.

--Dwight

[bishop333]

Edward:

I am up in Silverthorne in Summit County. Got a hold of this Luger at an auction in Silverplume (just west of George Town) if you can believe that!

Dwight:

A poster named "Ron Wood" has a post on a thread called "1902 Carbine Stock attached pics" here on this forum. He talks about this "accelerator" extra spring. Would love to know more about it and its intended purpose. Will try and get a pic next time around. Nothing really fancy, it is just another "leaf spring" strip you add to the original pack (from what I can tell).

Good to hear on the strike mark, sounds like nothing to worry about.

Bishop333

[Dwight Gruber]

Ah. Ron is one of the venerable collectors on this forum, he specializes in Lugers made up to the end of WWI.

The "accellerator spring" he talks about is in the fore-stock of a Luger Carbine. It engages a tab on the bottom of the barrel. It assists the considerable mass of the Carbine barrel/receiver/toggle assembly move back into battery after the breech closes on a new cartridge.

It sounds like the leaf-spring assist you describe is something else entirely, and will probably be new to almost everybody here.

--Dwight

[John Sabato]

I suggest you make photos of the spring arrangement and post them here. A photo of the grip frame with the grips removed would also be of interest.

Definitely post the results of your range work... Lugers, even old ones with what looks like terrible bores have a reputation for being VERY accurate.

Also, Tom Heller has new reproduction flat springs. I would suggest that you buy one and replace the tired original and put it away to make sure it doesn't get broken.

Dwight brings up a good point about the 9mm conversion... Since your gun has modified extensively, I think I might consider having it further modified to use the coil mainspring...

Waiting anxiously for your next installment on this very interesting and unusual gun.

[Big Norm]

There is a Lugerforum photo album. This album contains pictures of lugers that are owned by members here. You might want to look at a photo album by Hakan Spuhr who lives in Sweden. He has some pictures of Lugers that he has customized. Some are for competative shooting. He has some beautiful pictures of his work.
Big Norm

[wterrell]

bishop333,
Thanks for posting the pics and info on your 1900. A very impressive custom pistol.
Dwight's suggestion of pics of the accelerator spring is welcome. Sounds as if the custom conversion was done by a knowledgeable gunsmith.
I live a few miles to the east of you in Park County (of South Park fame or infamy).

[bishop333]

Big Norm:

Those are some nice modified Lugers. Looks like they are doing the adjustable sight on the rear toggle as well

Wes:

Sounds like we have a good Colorado group here. I have a machine shop here in Silverthorne, anyone wants to come by and chat Lugers just let me know and drop me a line. <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

OK, below are the pics of the (what I will now call) the â??Helper Springâ?�. As you can see this Helper Spring is not part of the riveted set that makes up the main spring. You can remove it with out removing the main spring pack. There are no marks on it what so ever. Obviously, this could have been easily made by hand by anyone who knows how to make spring steel. But the question is, has anyone seen this mod on an early before?

It really does beef up the return force. Tried it with and without and the difference is significant.

The last shot is of the rear strike on the frame. Does this look normal? As Dwight mentioned they all get this but just curious if this looks to be excessive.

Any takers on what â??SS&Gâ?� stands for?

Bishop333

[Pete Ebbink]

Another modified M1900 AE on Gun Broker :

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=23582986