Help with this Erfurt

pedroMM · 01-20-2015, 06:14 PM

Hi all.
A friend has this Erfurt Luger but he has no clue about its provenance...
It is a 9mm all matching ( except the mag) Luger which apparently mantains almost all its original finish
I don't know nothing about Imperial Lugers so could you help me to identify it please?
Regards
Pedro

pedroMM · 01-20-2015, 06:24 PM

If you need some close ups of an specific area just ask for them
Thanks a lot!

pedroMM · 01-20-2015, 06:28 PM

Last pics.
Hope you like them and know something about this Luger!
Regards
Pedro

DavidJayUden · 01-20-2015, 06:49 PM

Can you get us some photos in a natural light, such as daylight but not under direct sunshine? To me it is looking like it has been reblued, but need to see photos without flash. Also include the muzzle from the front and closeups of the tiny pin sticking up on the left top side of the round toggle knob?
Thanks.
dju

George Anderson · 01-20-2015, 06:57 PM

It's had the year date scrubbed off the chamber and been terribly reblued.

wlyon · 01-20-2015, 07:49 PM

George is correct as usual. Very poor rebluing. Wrong color. Also my bet is restrawed. Might make a good shooter but not a collectible. Bill

lugerholsterrepair · 01-20-2015, 09:02 PM

Why do re finishers hate dates? You see this type of molestation quite often.

ithacaartist · 01-21-2015, 03:33 AM

Pedro,

Sorry about the bad news, but the silver lining is that your friend can take this to the range and shoot the wheels off it (as I've heard said...) without worrying about diminishing its value in any way. What can be said about it is that was built before the end of the First World War by the Erfurt Arsenal, under contract to the military. The date over the chamber has been removed, and there's really no way to know now in which year it was made. Each part should have its own little proof, stamped at the factory--down to the grip screws, if I'm not mistaken, and this sets them apart. If your friend's pistol were in original condition, even if it's a little rough, collectors would be all over it!

Sergio Natali · 01-21-2015, 05:30 AM

Pedro

I my opinon it's a nice gun, but rather than a collectible belongs more to the shooter category, probably restrawed & reblued.

Sergio

jussi16 · 01-21-2015, 06:19 AM

Is there a notch on the chamber? Maybe it used to be a arty?

alanint · 01-21-2015, 07:19 AM

Most later Erfurts were manufactured with the notch, whether they were Arties or not.

alvin · 01-21-2015, 08:52 AM

The bolt is very worn. It even has chips in the front. Shooting it could be dangerous. After all, if injured in range, the cost to "repair" is not a few hundred, or a few thousand. Not mentioning the body suffering. Better having it inspected by a gunsmith for safety.

Douglas Jr. · 01-21-2015, 12:39 PM

Well, the notch in front of the chamber and what appears to be a relieved sear bar would date this guns as made between 1916-1918.
As said above it is a shame it was buffed (to the point of erasing the chamber date) and reblued.

Sergio Natali · 01-21-2015, 02:34 PM

The "notch" on ERFURT lugers was intended for barrel mounted rear sights, and can be found on guns made around late 1916 until the end of 1918.

Sergio

pedroMM · 01-21-2015, 03:42 PM

Thank you all for the answers!!
As it has already been stated here this Luger worths only its shooting capabilities... his owner has reached one position in the spanish top 10 historical pistols competition with this Luger so at least it doesn't shoot bad at all...
Just a bad thing..he payed 1.4K for it!!!( Which is what usually happens when you don't care about how you spend your money)

Regarding the date... I can't understand why the date was removed from this pistol during the rebluing works.. Any idea about it?
In hand the gun doesn't look bad.. but it is clearly visible that just the upper part ( chamber, toogle, etc) has been heavy refinished

Just about the aceptance proofs and other marks, could we know more about when could it be made?

Regards
Pedro

alvin · 01-21-2015, 05:34 PM

So, that chip on bolt is not an alarm at all?? highlighted area. Visually, it's broken.

Or, is it some kind of black glue there holding the extractor in place..

pedroMM · 01-21-2015, 07:37 PM

I suposse it is not broken.. he usually fires the gun without any incidence.. but I will try to check it with him asap!
Thank you for the help!

alanint · 01-22-2015, 06:26 AM

The bolt is chipped, not broken. These chips generally would not affect bolt integrity, but with a pistol this old, the fact that it is chipped would tend to indicate deeper problems, such a metal cristalization.

I would certainly have it looked at by a competent gunsmith.

nukem556 · 01-22-2015, 09:45 AM

Erfurts seem to be prone to that chipping on the breechblock...I have one just like it and have seen others. Mine doesn't extend very far into the extractor channel, and I've fired it a good bit without it getting worse.

Sergio Natali · 01-22-2015, 12:22 PM

Pedro,

I agree with Doug (alanint).
I always seem to remind people getting cheap shooters, that these old Lugers should never be fired with modern high speed and high power ammunition, because now after almost a century they might have become somehow structurally unsound.
At least have it properly checked by a serious gunsmith first.
Tell your friend not to to risk an injury at the range.
Shoot safe.

Sergio

01-20-2015, 06:14 PM	#1
pedroMM User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Spain Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Help with this Erfurt Hi all. A friend has this Erfurt Luger but he has no clue about its provenance... It is a 9mm all matching ( except the mag) Luger which apparently mantains almost all its original finish I don't know nothing about Imperial Lugers so could you help me to identify it please? Regards Pedro Attached Thumbnails

01-20-2015, 06:24 PM	#2
pedroMM User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Spain Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	If you need some close ups of an specific area just ask for them Thanks a lot! Attached Thumbnails

01-20-2015, 06:28 PM	#3
pedroMM User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Spain Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Last pics. Hope you like them and know something about this Luger! Regards Pedro Attached Thumbnails

01-20-2015, 07:49 PM	#6
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,652 Thanks: 3,210 Thanked 2,613 Times in 969 Posts	George is correct as usual. Very poor rebluing. Wrong color. Also my bet is restrawed. Might make a good shooter but not a collectible. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

01-20-2015, 09:02 PM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Why do re finishers hate dates? You see this type of molestation quite often. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-20-2015, 06:49 PM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Can you get us some photos in a natural light, such as daylight but not under direct sunshine? To me it is looking like it has been reblued, but need to see photos without flash. Also include the muzzle from the front and closeups of the tiny pin sticking up on the left top side of the round toggle knob? Thanks. dju

01-20-2015, 06:57 PM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	It's had the year date scrubbed off the chamber and been terribly reblued.

01-21-2015, 03:33 AM	#8
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,368 Thanks: 7,432 Thanked 2,611 Times in 1,378 Posts	Pedro, Sorry about the bad news, but the silver lining is that your friend can take this to the range and shoot the wheels off it (as I've heard said...) without worrying about diminishing its value in any way. What can be said about it is that was built before the end of the First World War by the Erfurt Arsenal, under contract to the military. The date over the chamber has been removed, and there's really no way to know now in which year it was made. Each part should have its own little proof, stamped at the factory--down to the grip screws, if I'm not mistaken, and this sets them apart. If your friend's pistol were in original condition, even if it's a little rough, collectors would be all over it! __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

01-21-2015, 05:30 AM	#9
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Pedro I my opinon it's a nice gun, but rather than a collectible belongs more to the shooter category, probably restrawed & reblued. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

01-21-2015, 06:19 AM	#10
jussi16 User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Finland Posts: 250 Thanks: 77 Thanked 52 Times in 31 Posts	Is there a notch on the chamber? Maybe it used to be a arty?

01-21-2015, 07:19 AM	#11
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	Most later Erfurts were manufactured with the notch, whether they were Arties or not.

01-21-2015, 08:52 AM	#12
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The bolt is very worn. It even has chips in the front. Shooting it could be dangerous. After all, if injured in range, the cost to "repair" is not a few hundred, or a few thousand. Not mentioning the body suffering. Better having it inspected by a gunsmith for safety.

01-21-2015, 12:39 PM	#13
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	Well, the notch in front of the chamber and what appears to be a relieved sear bar would date this guns as made between 1916-1918. As said above it is a shame it was buffed (to the point of erasing the chamber date) and reblued.

01-21-2015, 02:34 PM	#14
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	The "notch" on ERFURT lugers was intended for barrel mounted rear sights, and can be found on guns made around late 1916 until the end of 1918. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

01-21-2015, 03:42 PM	#15
pedroMM User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Spain Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Thank you all for the answers!! As it has already been stated here this Luger worths only its shooting capabilities... his owner has reached one position in the spanish top 10 historical pistols competition with this Luger so at least it doesn't shoot bad at all... Just a bad thing..he payed 1.4K for it!!!( Which is what usually happens when you don't care about how you spend your money) Regarding the date... I can't understand why the date was removed from this pistol during the rebluing works.. Any idea about it? In hand the gun doesn't look bad.. but it is clearly visible that just the upper part ( chamber, toogle, etc) has been heavy refinished Just about the aceptance proofs and other marks, could we know more about when could it be made? Regards Pedro

01-21-2015, 05:34 PM	#16
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	So, that chip on bolt is not an alarm at all?? highlighted area. Visually, it's broken. Or, is it some kind of black glue there holding the extractor in place.. Attached Images

01-21-2015, 07:37 PM	#17
pedroMM User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Spain Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	I suposse it is not broken.. he usually fires the gun without any incidence.. but I will try to check it with him asap! Thank you for the help!

01-22-2015, 06:26 AM	#18
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	The bolt is chipped, not broken. These chips generally would not affect bolt integrity, but with a pistol this old, the fact that it is chipped would tend to indicate deeper problems, such a metal cristalization. I would certainly have it looked at by a competent gunsmith.

01-22-2015, 09:45 AM	#19
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Erfurts seem to be prone to that chipping on the breechblock...I have one just like it and have seen others. Mine doesn't extend very far into the extractor channel, and I've fired it a good bit without it getting worse.

01-22-2015, 12:22 PM	#20
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Pedro, I agree with Doug (alanint). I always seem to remind people getting cheap shooters, that these old Lugers should never be fired with modern high speed and high power ammunition, because now after almost a century they might have become somehow structurally unsound. At least have it properly checked by a serious gunsmith first. Tell your friend not to to risk an injury at the range. Shoot safe. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.