Couple problems happening here

[Sky Zero]

So it seems to me like my spend casings are crimped/dented on the side after ejection. I noticed after shooting a bunch of rounds that the crimped part/dented part is actually having pieces of brass being shaved off of it at some point in the firing/ejection process and it's spreading those shavings all over my Luger. It gets everywhere and it's scratching my finish I thought I read somewhere else on this forum that the crimping of the rounds is normal, but lugerdoc said it wasn't. I've been using WWB but it does this for all ammo, honestly.

I stopped using the original mag once I got my 2 new mec-gar magazines but those don't seen to help this brass shavings problem.

Also, 50% of the time the action doesn't like to stay open after shooting the last bullet. about 40% of the time the action stays open with 1 bullet remaining. What's going on with that? It's happening with my 2 new mec-gar mags and my original mag. Here are some pictures. Sorry for the massive size and bad quality. I just want to get this fixed!


it does this to all the ammo, although sometimes it's not that crimped/dented. Most of the time, however, it's pretty dented.




as you can see here, the casings are pretty dented. Not sure if this is normal


this is where the majority of the built up is. The brass just grinds in there and scratches everything


As said earlier, this stuff gets everywhere including all down into the grip area.


here's some of it on my original magazine.

Any kind of help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!

[lugerholsterrepair]

I wrote this before I had a cup of coffee..Never mind!

[alanint]

I don't think the extractor would affect anything but the cartridge base, not its rim.

Try this; Take a permanent magic marker and make marks near the rim of a few loaded cartridges at the 12, 3, 6, and 9 positions. Mark one of these lines with an additional "T" for Top and chamber the round making sure that the "T" mark is right a the top position. After firing, see where the shaved area is in relation to your marks. This will help you determine which of the gun's components is acting on the spent shell.

[mrerick]

What does the breech throat area of your barrel look like?

Marc

[alanint]

I agree with Marc that I would be looking at the breech throat or the feeding ramp for a sharp edge or anomaly. I think this is more likely happening upon ejecting so there is little danger of overpressure, but the spent shells are clearly hitting something upon ejection with considerable force.

[Curly1]

I have seen this happen after ejection on my Russian TT33 and other pistol brass.

[Sky Zero]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

I wrote this before I had a cup of coffee..Never mind!

well, thanks for your input anyway! hehe

Originally Posted by alanint

I don't think the extractor would affect anything but the cartridge base, not its rim.

Try this; Take a permanent magic marker and make marks near the rim of a few loaded cartridges at the 12, 3, 6, and 9 positions. Mark one of these lines with an additional "T" for Top and chamber the round making sure that the "T" mark is right a the top position. After firing, see where the shaved area is in relation to your marks. This will help you determine which of the gun's components is acting on the spent shell.

hey thanks for the idea. I'll go ahead and give this a try and see what I come up with. I'll post details after my next range visit so keep an eye out here

Originally Posted by mrerick

What does the breech throat area of your barrel look like?

Marc

I'll snap a picture of it and you can have a looksie. I don't exactly know what I would be looking for.

[Sky Zero]

Originally Posted by Rick W.

I am not overly sure of what is causing the marks on the case from here.

Likewise, I am not overly sure, how brass will mar steel but I do not get out much.

The extractor that resides in the breechblock only has so much reach up the case, wants to run over the rim and lock into the rim recess of the case during charging. If the brass shavings are coming from there, looks like the rims would show the wear(scratches at least).

One might take a small file and mark the rim with a smallish cut, then put that cut straight up before firing in single shot mode. That way you would have an angular reference as a clue.

I reckon it is possible for the fired case to be marked by the sharp edge(taper crimp) of the next round in the magazine, and possibly by the ejector. Just a guess on my part. Perhaps the ejector is kicking the spent case hard to the left onto the receiver fork?

The 9mmx19 is a slightly tapererd rimless case that headspaces on the case mouth. The original crimps in reloading were so called rolled crimps, such that the front of the case mouth was actually rolled into the bullet by the crimping/seating die. The taper crimp dies actually compress the case around the bullet completely, kinda a complete squeeze, rather than just at the case mouth.

It is easy to overdo the roll crimp and effect headspace, lots of leverage in today's presses. The taper crimp can be overdone too, but a bit harder to do because of dimensional stops, but leaves a nice squarish face to headspace on. Most that do the roll crimp on these cases use only a smallish amount of roll, and the headspace is off the very slightly rolled edge. Both methods will work nicely, appropriately applied.

One finds the roll crimp moreso in the rimmed cases.

One has to have to have some crimp, from whatever type of method, just to keep the bullet from going down the case and reducing the powder cavity(higher pressures). One might note that an overly smallish expander can provide fair amount of bullet holding power on its own but can effect accuracy especially with lead bullets(lead shaving on seating).

The holdopen deal can be a puzzler at times. The spring on the holdopen tries to keep the face of the holdopen in its cavity at all times. If the holdopen lead spring is weak, then the holdopen can bounce upward and catch the breechblock early. If so, one would think that the holdopen issue would show up somewhat randomly with reference to the number of cartridges still in the magazine.

The other issue is in the magazine itself. How high does the new magazines sit in the frame. The other is the size of the magazine loading button on the side, ie diameter of said button.

One can take the one grip off and watch the things work on the holdopen versus the magazine button. The purpose of the button is to mechanically lift the holdopen up against the will of the hold open spring to catch the breechblock appropriately.

I notice some wear on the ramps; may just be the picture.

thank you for the crimping info! Now I unerstand when people are talking about it haha. Appreciate it!

[Sky Zero]

Here's the breech throat as best as I could get it, as well as the feedramp (I think...)

[alanint]

What is that "U" shaped piece at the top of your extractor groove? That does not belong there!?!
Please take a photo of this area from the top of the pistol looking down. This right here may be your problem. I also don't see how a normal extractor could fit in the groove with that piece in there, so a photo of your extractor would also be useful.

Jerry, you may have been onto something after all!

[Lugerdoc]

I believe that the "U" shaped "problem" is just an optical illusion caused by the angle that the photo was taken. So long as this part of the received doesn't extend into the extractor cut of the barrel, it should be OK. Too many of you chasing Zebras. Unually when the case mouth of a spent case is crushed, it's a result of the toggle returning faster than the case can eject. There are several possible cause of this, but with the lack of HO after the last round, I would postulate that the recoil spring is too strong for the ammo being used. Cutting a link or two off of the current recoil spring, should solve this problem. Of course it would be a good idea to also check the condition of the extractor and ejector, which can also delay case removal. TH

[Vlim]

Take a look at the extractor spring (the little coil spring below the extractor itself). When it is weak, the round will be pulled backwards, and rammed out by the next round. The dent is usually caused by the extracted case banging into the receiver. You should notice that the case barely clears the gun while shooting. With a fresh extractor spring, the case will jump over you.

I had a mismatched VoPo with the same 'features'. The cases kept hitting me in the face, or on top of my head, and all were dented. Finally I replaced the extractor spring and all went back to normal.

[Sky Zero]

Originally Posted by alanint

What is that "U" shaped piece at the top of your extractor groove? That does not belong there!?!
Please take a photo of this area from the top of the pistol looking down. This right here may be your problem.

I hope that's what you were looking for :/ I'm still going to try your idea; just haven't been to the range yet.

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

Unually when the case mouth of a spent case is crushed, it's a result of the toggle returning faster than the case can eject. There are several possible cause of this, but with the lack of HO after the last round, I would postulate that the recoil spring is too strong for the ammo being used. Cutting a link or two off of the current recoil spring, should solve this problem. Of course it would be a good idea to also check the condition of the extractor and ejector, which can also delay case removal. TH

Good info! Where exactly is the recoil spring located? Not inside the bolt assembly, right? That's the only spring I've seen other than the hold-open spring. Could the recoil spring also be causing my hold open issue?

here's some photos of the extractor and ejector. I'm new to lugers so I don't know what abnormalities in which I may be looking




It's a bit dirty.. sorry! Wanted it this way for the photos though

[Sky Zero]

Originally Posted by Vlim

Take a look at the extractor spring (the little coil spring below the extractor itself). When it is weak, the round will be pulled backwards, and rammed out by the next round. The dent is usually caused by the extracted case banging into the receiver. You should notice that the case barely clears the gun while shooting. With a fresh extractor spring, the case will jump over you.

I had a mismatched VoPo with the same 'features'. The cases kept hitting me in the face, or on top of my head, and all were dented. Finally I replaced the extractor spring and all went back to normal.

Well the rounds seem to jump high well enough and usually bang me on the top of my head after hitting the ceiling above the shooting station. i'll take a looksie at the spring; anything I should notice when looking at it if it's a weak spring? Could the ejector be cutting into the rounds that give that triangular shaving pattern (see original photos) Thanks! Great info as well.

[JD]

Looking at your photos, and noting that you are using WWB, I don't think the "brass" you are seeing in the pistol action is brass at all. WWB is loaded with ball powder, and in my experience it leaves some unburnt powder particles in the action after firing. These particles are a yellow / brass color as the deterent coating gets burned off, and are very small spheres or flattened spheres. To the average shooter they do appear to be "brass" particles, but instead are simply unburnt pwder particles and are quite normal when firing ammo loaded with some types of ball powder. I see this all the time when firing my Sigs with Winchester ammo...

[Vlim]

Geco has a similar burn/residue behavior.

[mrerick]

It looks like the barrel is not rotationally aligned in the receiver. Note the lack of symmetry at the extractor cut.

Note how the left side of the cut is vertically aligned, and the right side of the cut has a step.

Does the barrel witness mark line up, and is the front sight perfectly vertical to the receiver and frame?

Marc

[Sky Zero]

Originally Posted by JD

Looking at your photos, and noting that you are using WWB, I don't think the "brass" you are seeing in the pistol action is brass at all. WWB is loaded with ball powder, and in my experience it leaves some unburnt powder particles in the action after firing. These particles are a yellow / brass color as the deterent coating gets burned off, and are very small spheres or flattened spheres. To the average shooter they do appear to be "brass" particles, but instead are simply unburnt pwder particles and are quite normal when firing ammo loaded with some types of ball powder. I see this all the time when firing my Sigs with Winchester ammo...

Excellent info. It's not that I don't believe you or don't want to take your word for it, but these brass looking shavings are also shiny like they are on the casings. There are also large bits/chunks/strips of this shiny brass colored material laying here and there around the different parts of the gun. Is this powdery residue you're speaking of shiny as well? It shines when light is put to it.

Originally Posted by mrerick

It looks like the barrel is not rotationally aligned in the receiver. Note the lack of symmetry at the extractor cut.

Note how the left side of the cut is vertically aligned, and the right side of the cut has a step.

Does the barrel witness mark line up, and is the front sight perfectly vertical to the receiver and frame?

Marc

Now that you mentioned it, I see a lack of symmetry in the area you're talking about as well as a misaligned witness mark. Here's a photo.

[JD]

Sky Zero,

Unburnt powder particles can look shiny if they are covered in oil or when you shine a bright light on them. Powder particles are round or semi-round flattened spheres, often very small. Powder particles would not be in the shape of strips, or rectangles. My guess is that most of what your seeing is powder particles, with probably some real brass particles thrown in too...

[Sky Zero]

Originally Posted by JD

Sky Zero,

Unburnt powder particles can look shiny if they are covered in oil or when you shine a bright light on them. Powder particles are round or semi-round flattened spheres, often very small. Powder particles would not be in the shape of strips, or rectangles. My guess is that most of what your seeing is powder particles, with probably some real brass particles thrown in too...

oh ok! Thanks for the info, JD

should I get my proof marks aligned? (see picture 2 posts up)